The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

So tell me WHO forces you to respond ? This forum has a fine ignore feature, learn how to use it and quit whining.
But while you're gone do review John 6 and the Psalms.

I’m 72 hardly a kid, Also we are done. I haven’t given you over to a reprobate mind just to your pretribulationism and rejection of scripture. Besides that you are immature “ KID"

FreeGrace2 said:
Still not a biblical word. The biblical word for giving glorified bodies to living believers is "gathered up", used in Matt 24 and 2 Thess 2:1.

Really? And we are waiting for pretribbers to provide ANY verse that shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. So don't be so smug.

btw, Rev 11:12 is about the 2W being raised from the dead and being called back home to heaven. So what? What evidence do you have (I did not say presumption) that they received glorified bodies then? OK, you don't. So again, don't be so smug.

1 Cof 15:23 tells us EXACTLY WHEN these 2W will get their glorified bodies: when ALL the other dead saints get theirs, which is "when He comes" that being the Second Advent, of course.

"But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him."

Real clear. Jesus is the FIRST one to get a glorified body, which is when He was resurrected. And then, when He comes at the Second Advent, ALL believers will get theirs.

If you can prove any of this to be incorrect or unbiblical, please share your evidence.

So you really think these are raptured believers with glorified bodies? Why? What you have here is speculation. That's it.

So, I will ask you one question. How did God "keep the Israelites from the hour of trial that is coming upon Egypt"?

Well, now, this is an odd comment. I've seen nothing but silence from the pretribbers when all the verses that prove a post trib gathering or rapture up to the clouds. But NO trip to heaven, because there won't be any.

All you guys keep making bold claims about a rapture with trip to heaven, but you become stonily silent when asked for verses.

You are a pot calling a kettle black.

OK, I"ll bite. I dare you to cite just ONE post that would support this claim.
Are you even awake? why don't you read my posts? And I mean with your eyes open. Just read my quote above. Full of verses.

So, since you think I have no evidence for my view, go ahead and address the verses and prove that they don't support my view.

Just like Abs, you are full of yourself and your self-proclaimed boasts. Yet, it is the pretribbers who CAN'T provide ANY verse that shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

So all the hogwash and unsupportable theology is on your side.

Oh yes. And arrogant name-calling. Seems to be your specialty.

And yet, you haven't proved ANY of your boastful claims.

No, what is truly appalling is claiming that Jesus will take glorified believers to heaven. Since there is no verse that shows that.

Could you find the quote and post where you think I made this proclamation?

Making such wild claims without any evidence is what is really embarrassing, or should be.

And it is truly shameful. Shame on you.

When will you actually provide evidence what whatever it is you believe?

All you can do is throw insults and make very vague comments, like "silly John 6". Lightweight.

Do your homework before engaging.

Some things require a great deal of thought and study, when ever possible, especially in matters of eschatology, begin with what our Lord actually said, then move on the more complicated portions.

Another stupid question, I see. No one forces me to respond. I choose to.

Calling out lightweights who don't do their homework isn't whining. It's pointing out the truth.

I don't put anyone on ignore. I just let them continue to embarrass themselves by their posts, and I enjoy pointing out their errors.

My view is that putting people on 'ignore' is simply a way to avoid having to answer tough questions, or or not even having answers.

Nope. I'm waiting to see if you even know what's in John 6.

I'm not going anywhere. you are free to keep embarrassing yourself. Or should I ask it this way: who is forcing you to embarrass yourself?

Not one person, but your private interpretation may say otherwise.

Who was hell created for?

Who was chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, according to God's word ?

Not one person, but your private interpretation may say otherwise.

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

But you know better, you must be a true Apostle.

The word according takes the context back to verse 3, the spiritual blessings in Christ. Verse 4 does not say he chose us to be in him as Calvinists like to read.

God chose, before the foundation of the world that spiritual blessings would be found in Christ.

Again, who was he'll created for? Man?

Rev_17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

LOL thats not eve close to what you need it to be , in fact it is contrary.

And if you want to discuss sovereignty it deserves it own thread.

Fun to remember exactly who wanted to put Jesus on an earthly throne

The spiritual blessings in the heavenly places are in accordance of what God chose to give those who would be in Christ.

Sovereignty is not a biblical word. Let’s allow scripture to describe God not the RCC.

You continue to oppose the Bible by claiming that there is no such verse, since you want that verse to parrot your words. But that is not how Scripture was written, and it was definitely not written for scoffers and naysayers. So the question remains as to whether you are interested in the truth, or are merely interested in opposing the truth?

Since Philippians 3:20 tells us that our citizenship is in Heaven, it then follows that all Scriptures pertaining to the Resurrection/Rapture include the fact that Jesus will take all glorified believers to Heaven. Simple human logic would say "Where else would He take them?" But we are not left in doubt. John 14:1-3 plainly tells us that Christ will take His people to Heaven -- His Father's House -- when He comes for them.

King James 2000 Bible
For our citizenship is in heaven; from which also we look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ:

The Lord Jesus Christ is presently in Heaven. So why would we look for the Savior from Heaven unless it is guaranteed that we will be also taken to Heaven at the Resurrection/Rapture? And since all the saints (OT and NT) who have passed on are presently in Heaven (Heb 12:22-24) it follows that after the Resurrection/Rapture everyone who is in the family of God will be in Heaven (Rev 7:9).

On the other hand, if you would rather not be in Heaven, you can petition the Lord to leave you on earth. But in the meantime stop posting nonsense about Christians not going to Heaven. That could be damaging to many who are uncertain about some of these things, while you are sowing seeds of spiritual confusion.

Election is to service, as this verse shows. The "us" here is actually defined in v.19 as "us who believe".

So Eph 1:4 says "according as He has chosen/elected BELIEVERS ,,, that we SHOULD BE holy and w/o blame before Him"

Every verse that states the purpose of election shows that it is about service.

There are NO verses that state the purpose of election to be about salvation.

FreeGrace2 said:
In fact, NO verse shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.
Mr Nehemiah6, have you NOT noticed that I have NEVER demanded or even asked for a verse that "parrots" my words. In fact, I have carefully AVOIDED such language.

What I have asked for is any verse that SHOWS Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. Isn't THAT what the "doctrine of rapture" is really all about anyway?

So, if you want to PROVE that I am opposing the Bible, all you have to do is show me a verse that shows or talks about Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

I have demanded no kind of special wording. If there isn't such a verse, then WHY WHY WHY would anyone believe that Jesus will take glorified believers to heaven?

At least explain that, please.

How weird. You claim I am "scoffing and naysaying" the Bible itself when YOU don't have any verse that makes clear that Jesus takes glorified believers to heaven. Hm.

Yet, I and others have frequently quoted verses that PROVE that there is only 1 resurrection of the saved, and that 1 resurrection, which includes the "gathering" of living believers so they can also receive a glorified body per 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15:52,53, is AFTER the Tribulation, and it is YOU GUYS who scoff, mock and naysay our verses.

You really have it all backward.

All you have to do is show me a verse that clearly has (see? no specific wording required) Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

This is just a presumption. Every saved person in the history of mankind WILL be IN heaven, except the living ones who are gathered up "when He comes". So Phil 3:20 is true and has NOTHING to do with Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

I've explained this passage over and over. Jesus was telling His 11 disciples that they would have a place in heaven. Since ALL of them did die, they are all NOW in heaven in a place prepared for them. Sheesh. This ain't rocket science.

John 14:1-3 is about eternal security, NOT some rapture trip.

All you have are verses that have to include lots of presumptions.

There is no clear verse that shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

in fact, the ONLY believers that He did take to heaven was after the resurrection when He emptied Paradise and relocated all of them to the 3rd heaven. And that's it.

I understand you to be saying having your name written in the book of life has nothing to do with salvation, is that correct?



Rev_17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

FreeGrace2 said:
Election is to service, as this verse shows. The "us" here is actually defined in v.19 as "us who believe".

So Eph 1:4 says "according as He has chosen/elected BELIEVERS ,,, that we SHOULD BE holy and w/o blame before Him"

Every verse that states the purpose of election shows that it is about service.

There are NO verses that state the purpose of election to be about salvation.
No, that is not correct. My point was simply that election is to service, not to salvation.

God is omniscient. Therefore, He has always known who would believe for salvation. And as such, He has all their names written in the book of life.

God is omniscent. Therefore, He has always known who would not believe for salvation. And He did not write their names down in the book of life.

I've heard some scholars say that everyone's name is written in the book of life. And when a person dies, if they don't have the gift of eternal life, their name is removed.

But that is like saying God doesn't know who will and will not believe, so He has every name in the book, and takes the names out if they die without the gift of eternal life.

Nope. being omniscient, He doens't have to "wait and see" what will unfold. He has always known.

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify.

One thing is for sure, that "COME UP HERE" of Rev 11:12 must take place AFTER the 3.5 years tribulation, and then after 3.5 days they are resurrected. Those 3.5 days may also be a reference of the 3.5 years tribulation as well. That's a post-trib event whatsoever.

Many commentaries will tell you that those 24 Elders are 12 disciples and 12 tribes, but if you're really familiar with the OT, you'd realize that they represent the 24 divisions of priesthood in 1 Chron. 24, doing the same kind of priestly duty in a heavenly temple.