The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.
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I over stepped my learning ... but help from you thanks but no thanks .Saint your a bit off here....well more than a bit. Is this from your findings? I like to help you on this if you'd like
Still not a biblical word. The biblical word for giving glorified bodies to living believers is "gathered up", used in Matt 24 and 2 Thess 2:1.
Really? And we are waiting for pretribbers to provide ANY verse that shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. So don't be so smug.
btw, Rev 11:12 is about the 2W being raised from the dead and being called back home to heaven. So what? What evidence do you have (I did not say presumption) that they received glorified bodies then? OK, you don't. So again, don't be so smug.
1 Cof 15:23 tells us EXACTLY WHEN these 2W will get their glorified bodies: when ALL the other dead saints get theirs, which is "when He comes" that being the Second Advent, of course.
"But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him."
Real clear. Jesus is the FIRST one to get a glorified body, which is when He was resurrected. And then, when He comes at the Second Advent, ALL believers will get theirs.
If you can prove any of this to be incorrect or unbiblical, please share your evidence.
So you really think these are raptured believers with glorified bodies? Why? What you have here is speculation. That's it.
So, I will ask you one question. How did God "keep the Israelites from the hour of trial that is coming upon Egypt"?
Well, now, this is an odd comment. I've seen nothing but silence from the pretribbers when all the verses that prove a post trib gathering or rapture up to the clouds. But NO trip to heaven, because there won't be any.
All you guys keep making bold claims about a rapture with trip to heaven, but you become stonily silent when asked for verses.
You are a pot calling a kettle black.
OK, I"ll bite. I dare you to cite just ONE post that would support this claim.
Did Jesus really say that? In plain and clear language cant be true as it does not fit the theology i choose to believe.. (sarcasm)
FreeGrace2 said:
Which one? There will be two; one for the saved and one for the unsaved.
The saved will be resurrected "when He comes", which is at the Second Advent. 1 Cor 15:23, Rev 20:5
The unsaved will be bodily resurrected (no glory) to appear at the GWT judgment and after being judged, be cast into the LoF, where their mortal body will die AGAIN, which is why the Bible describes the LoF as the SECOND death.
In v.8 it should be obvious that there WILL be "an hour" coming where the dead in graves will hear His voice. That you think Jesus was teaching that there is just ONE resurrection, where all the saved and unsaved will be called forth is silly.
The verses I've shared prove that there are 2 resurrections. At different times should be obvious.
We know that the resurrection of all the saved (1 Cor 15:23) will be "when He comes", but NONE of the unsaved will be raised to face the GWT judgment at that time. Impossible.
We know when the GWT judgment will be: AFTER the Millennial reign of Christ. Read through Rev 20. It's very clear.
When the trib martyrs are resurrected to reign with Christ, v.5 calls that the FIRST resurrection. Then, at the end of the Millennium, there will be a second resurrection: all unbelievers will be called to the GWT.
Which one? There will be two; one for the saved and one for the unsaved.
The saved will be resurrected "when He comes", which is at the Second Advent. 1 Cor 15:23, Rev 20:5
The unsaved will be bodily resurrected (no glory) to appear at the GWT judgment and after being judged, be cast into the LoF, where their mortal body will die AGAIN, which is why the Bible describes the LoF as the SECOND death.
Actually, since Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15 and 1 Cor 15:23 ALL refer to resurrection of the saved in the singular, and Acts 24:15 specifically says there will be 1 for the saved and 1 for the unsaved, we need to apply these facts to John 5:8 and 29.
In v.8 it should be obvious that there WILL be "an hour" coming where the dead in graves will hear His voice. That you think Jesus was teaching that there is just ONE resurrection, where all the saved and unsaved will be called forth is silly.
The verses I've shared prove that there are 2 resurrections. At different times should be obvious.
We know that the resurrection of all the saved (1 Cor 15:23) will be "when He comes", but NONE of the unsaved will be raised to face the GWT judgment at that time. Impossible.
We know when the GWT judgment will be: AFTER the Millennial reign of Christ. Read through Rev 20. It's very clear.
When the trib martyrs are resurrected to reign with Christ, v.5 calls that the FIRST resurrection. Then, at the end of the Millennium, there will be a second resurrection: all unbelievers will be called to the GWT.
FreeGrace2 said:
John 12:32 - And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Here, "all" does mean "everyone".
However, not everyone responds to the drawing. By dying for the sins of the whole world, Jesus has drawn everyone. It was the greatest expression of love in the universe. All that's left is the response. Not everyone responds to acts of love.
Ah, yes. One of the calvinist "proof texts". Let's examine the VERY NEXT VERSE. Just for context. Calvinists NEVER EVER acknowledge v.45, but it fully explains v.44.
44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
So, everyone will be "taught by God". But only those who have listened and learned from Him will "come to Me".
So, v.44 means that God the Father draws those who have listened and learned from Him and will come to Jesus.
v.45 follows v.44 and explains who WILL BE drawn to Jesus. As I explained.
Since you disagree, please provide an explanation of how where and why I am in error.
I do not want to be wrong any more than you want to be wrong.
So, if I am wrong, I would like correction. But NOT just opinions, assumptions, presumptions and the like.
I need actual evidence from Scripture that refutes my view.
Can you do that? Or are you mainly a "throw out a charge" kind of guy? Without any back up evidence.
John 12:32 - And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Here, "all" does mean "everyone".
However, not everyone responds to the drawing. By dying for the sins of the whole world, Jesus has drawn everyone. It was the greatest expression of love in the universe. All that's left is the response. Not everyone responds to acts of love.
Ah, yes. One of the calvinist "proof texts". Let's examine the VERY NEXT VERSE. Just for context. Calvinists NEVER EVER acknowledge v.45, but it fully explains v.44.
44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
So, everyone will be "taught by God". But only those who have listened and learned from Him will "come to Me".
So, v.44 means that God the Father draws those who have listened and learned from Him and will come to Jesus.
So, explain how I have it "backward" when v.44 comes BEFORE v.45?
v.45 follows v.44 and explains who WILL BE drawn to Jesus. As I explained.
Since you disagree, please provide an explanation of how where and why I am in error.
I do not want to be wrong any more than you want to be wrong.
So, if I am wrong, I would like correction. But NOT just opinions, assumptions, presumptions and the like.
I need actual evidence from Scripture that refutes my view.
Can you do that? Or are you mainly a "throw out a charge" kind of guy? Without any back up evidence.
How do you have it backwards ? Dead men dont choose anything , and when Jesus said it is blessed to have ears that hear He wasnt kidding. Scriptural evidence doesnt matter to you , if it did you would never contradict Jesus, so I'll put it a different way
Two questions;
Is there anyone in heaven God didnt want there?
Is there anyone in hell God didnt want there?
Its a one word answer, same for both questions.
The correct answer is no, the incorrect ,yours, is yes.
But if you really want to discuss sovereignty , it deservers its own thread.
Hm. I gave you a lot of biblical material, and this is all you can do?
Why do you think John 6 is silly? And how do you think that John 6 addresses the resurrection?
When posters don't really have answers or evidence, they usually throw out these kinds of posts. If John 6 has relevant info, you could have just given it.
I guess you don't.
Guess all you want , but you win stupid question of the year! LOL
And how do you think that John 6 addresses the resurrection?
Who is talking about choice here anyway? But your comment reveals your calvinist theology clearly.
The text says clearly that when Jesus calls, the "dead with hear". No choice at all.
Jesus never kidded. But your claim here isn't related to John 5:29 and resurrection.
How arrogant of you. What a stupid claim to make about someone who doesn't even know my position.
Just get to your point, if you actually have one. Where have I "contradicted" Jesus?
Of course not. God is pleased...to save those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21
Yes. All of them. It seems you are the one who isn't interested in "scriptural evidence".
1 Tim 2-
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.
Maybe these verses don't interest you. So here's more:
Luke 5:32 - I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
I will recommend that you do some homework before you try engaging me again. You show a lot of ignorance of the truth.
OK, so you can't answer the question, so you lower yourself to ad hominem. That's just so typical.
You STILL don't have any answers or evidence for whatever it is you believe.
Do your homework.
Who was chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, according to God's word ?
LOl You will dismiss this suggestion as well but there are always lurkers about, so I suggest you compare your proof text with the Psalms.
LOL I LOVE prophecy experts who dont read John. But then avoiding what Jesus actually said makes it easier to conform Him into your image .
Drawing a blank again are you. You have no answer because there is no answer in a post-trib dynamic. Post-trib is hogwash and utterly unsupportable. It does not work on any level. Biblically, technically feasibly logistically. It is the refuge of clueless bible-thumping ignoramuses. TDW has provided truth in copious quantities and you have rejected all of it.....ALL of it. I did not make the same mistake.
WILLFUL stygian ignorance is the predominant defining feature of the post-tribber. It always amazes me that they are practically 100% wrong 100% of the time. And when they are not wrong, it's little more than a blind squirrel finding a nut once in a while, or a broken clock being right twice a day.
And yes Christ WAS resurrected on the feast of first fruits, and DID ascend it to the Father the very same day, to return to the earth soon thereafter. For you to be in total error and ignorant of this crucial phenomenon is truly appalling.
Yet you proclaim yourself to be a Bible scholar? This is beyond embarrassing. It is truly shameful.
Yawn , I'll remind you of John six and for your other problems dont forget the Psalms .
How about NOT trying to read the mind of others, since you have no ability to anyway, and just stick to what God's Word says? Or aren't you interested?
All you've brought to this thread is rudeness, silliness, and arrogance. And NO evidence for whatever it is you believe.
I answered your question about how many in hell didn't God want there. And you just float over my answer. But again, since I provided clear Scriptural evidence that backs up my answer, I'm not surprised.
And you thought none of them. But that's just your calvinism showing through.
FreeGrace2 said:
OK, so you can't answer the question, so you lower yourself to ad hominem. That's just so typical.
You STILL don't have any answers or evidence for whatever it is you believe.
Do your homework.
OK, so you can't answer the question, so you lower yourself to ad hominem. That's just so typical.
You STILL don't have any answers or evidence for whatever it is you believe.
Do your homework.
You are really full of yourself, huh.
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