Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

Luke 16
19-31 “There was once a rich man who used to dress in purple and fine linen and lead a life of daily luxury. And there was a poor man called Lazarus who was put down at his gate. He was covered with sores. He used to long to be fed with the scraps from the rich man’s table. Yes, and the dogs used to come and lick his sores. Well, it happened that the poor man died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And from among the dead he looked up and saw Abraham a long way away, and Lazarus in his arms. ‘Father Abraham!’ he cried out, ‘please pity me. Send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in agony in these flames.’ But Abraham replied, ‘Remember, my son, that you used to have the good things in your lifetime, while Lazarus suffered the bad. Now he is being comforted here, while you are in agony. And besides this, a great chasm has been set between you and us, so that those who want to go to you from this side cannot do so, and people cannot come to us from your side.’ At this he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house for I have five brothers. He could warn them about all this and prevent their coming to this place of torture.’ But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets: they can listen to them.’ ‘Ah no, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘if only someone were to go to them from the dead, they would change completely.’ But Abraham told him, ‘If they will not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they would not be convinced even if somebody were to rise from the dead.’”

We know that this story is about the grave, not Heaven and Hell as we know of it. There is nothing in the text that says it is a parable. The only one's who came centuries later are those that deny that Hell is eternal punishment Matthew 25:46. I do not remember the first person who taught that, but I think it was after 1500 AD.

Maybe, someone knows.

Clearly the point Abraham was trying to make was that it’s better to obey
the Law and Prophets than to die and get to the afterlife and find out the
hard way that it’s too late to go back and fix it.

So if the Bible is not supposed to contradict itself, then how can we believe that this story in Luke 16 is to be taken literally and at the same time believe that Ecclesiastes 9:5,6, which states: "For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun." is also true?

If this story is taken literally, then by default wouldn't we also have to believe that after death we can still experience pain and torment? Wouldn't pain and torment be considered a part of "sharing in anything done under the sun"? This would mean that we have to make a decision of which "truth" is the real truth. I don't think this is a safe way to approach the Bible. Once we start deciding which verses hold "the truth" and which ones do not, then we are putting ourselves in the position of God who has the only right to determine what is truth and what is not, since He is the original author.

Instead, when we come across what appears to be a contradiction, it is much safer to use the passage that is stated much more directly as a reference point and ask God to help us understand how the two passages can fit together without being at odds with each other.

Personally, I believe the story is not about what happens to us after death, but rather what we should be focusing on before we die. Jesus was using this scenario as a word picture to help His audience (including readers through the ages) to more clearly grasp the lesson that once we die we can no longer go back and change the decisions we made before death. So, right now, while we are still living, we need to take advantage of every opportunity we have to be good stewards of our time and resources.

So if the Bible is not supposed to contradict itself, then how can we believe that this story in Luke 16 is to be taken literally and at the same time believe that Ecclesiastes 9:5,6, which states: "For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun." is also true?

If this story is taken literally, then by default wouldn't we also have to believe that after death we can still experience pain and torment? Wouldn't pain and torment be considered a part of "sharing in anything done under the sun"? This would mean that we have to make a decision of which "truth" is the real truth. I don't think this is a safe way to approach the Bible. Once we start deciding which verses hold "the truth" and which ones do not, then we are putting ourselves in the position of God who has the only right to determine what is truth and what is not, since He is the original author.

Instead, when we come across what appears to be a contradiction, it is much safer to use the passage that is stated much more directly as a reference point and ask God to help us understand how the two passages can fit together without being at odds with each other.

Personally, I believe the story is not about what happens to us after death, but rather what we should be focusing on before we die. Jesus was using this scenario as a word picture to help His audience (including readers through the ages) to more clearly grasp the lesson that once we die we can no longer go back and change the decisions we made before death. So, right now, while we are still living, we need to take advantage of every opportunity we have to be good stewards of our time and resources.

I think a better translation is "portion":
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Eccl 9:5-6 (KJV)
The dead no longer know anything about what's going on on earth (under the sun). Their portion is conscious torment and hopelessness in hell - and they know that full well. So there's no contradiction.

There is not enough evidence from the parable of the rich man and Lazarus to conclude the rich man was literally in torment. What I see, despite his claims of being in torment, is he is able to calmly and articulately dictate intelligibly in a discussion. No wailing or gnashing of teeth to be heard of in this parable. He’s not in much torment at all.

Furthermore, if this parable is literal then torment is close enough to the place of comfort to hear the occupants in flames demand help day and night. Good luck enjoying your place of comfort watching your unsaved neighbors, friends, and family burn.

Of course, I’m being a bit facetious. This is absolutely a parable because none of what it literally says meshes well with other scriptural sources.

I would look at the earliest writings of the church (aside from the Bible of course) to get an idea of what people were teaching and believing. Irenaeus of Lyons is a second century church father, Constantine was in the third century and they both taught conditional immortality or what some people call annihilationism. There's probably more, I only quickly dug up these references.

Edit: see also Ignatius of Antioch and Arnobius of Sicca.

So if the Bible is not supposed to contradict itself, then how can we believe that this story in Luke 16 is to be taken literally and at the same time believe that Ecclesiastes 9:5,6, which states: "For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun." is also true?

If this story is taken literally, then by default wouldn't we also have to believe that after death we can still experience pain and torment? Wouldn't pain and torment be considered a part of "sharing in anything done under the sun"? This would mean that we have to make a decision of which "truth" is the real truth. I don't think this is a safe way to approach the Bible. Once we start deciding which verses hold "the truth" and which ones do not, then we are putting ourselves in the position of God who has the only right to determine what is truth and what is not, since He is the original author.

Instead, when we come across what appears to be a contradiction, it is much safer to use the passage that is stated much more directly as a reference point and ask God to help us understand how the two passages can fit together without being at odds with each other.

Personally, I believe the story is not about what happens to us after death, but rather what we should be focusing on before we die. Jesus was using this scenario as a word picture to help His audience (including readers through the ages) to more clearly grasp the lesson that once we die we can no longer go back and change the decisions we made before death. So, right now, while we are still living, we need to take advantage of every opportunity we have to be good stewards of our time and resources.

I think what is being lost in this forum is that Jesus is not just giving a warning, but describing what is reality. Yes hell is real and yes a great number of people will end up there.

Matthew 13:3
And he spake many things unto them in parable s, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

Matthew 13:10
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parable s?

Matthew 13:13
Therefore speak I to them in parable s: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Matthew 13:18
Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

Matthew 13:24
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

Matthew 13:31
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:

Matthew 13:33
Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Matthew 13:34
All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parable s; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Matthew 13:35
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parable s; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Matthew 13:36
Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

Matthew 13:53
And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these parable s, he departed thence.

Matthew 15:15
Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable .

Matthew 21:33
Hear another parable : There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:

Matthew 21:45
And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parable s, they perceived that he spake of them.

Matthew 22:1
And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parable s, and said,

Matthew 24:32
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Mark 3:23
And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parable s, How can Satan cast out Satan?

Mark 4:2
And he taught them many things by parable s, and said unto them in his doctrine,

Mark 4:10
And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable .

Mark 4:11
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parable s:

Mark 4:13
And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable ? and how then will ye know all parable s?

Mark 4:33
And with many such parable s spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it.

Mark 4:34
But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

Mark 7:17
And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable .

Mark 12:1
And he began to speak unto them by parable s. A certain man planted a vineyard, and set an hedge about it, and digged a place for the winefat, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country.

Mark 12:12
And they sought to lay hold on him, but feared the people: for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them: and they left him, and went their way.

Mark 13:28
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:

Luke 5:36
And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.

Luke 6:39
And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?

Luke 8:4
And when much people were gathered together, and were come to him out of every city, he spake by a parable :

Luke 8:9
And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?

Luke 8:10
And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parable s; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Luke 8:11
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Luke 12:16
And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:

Luke 12:41
Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?

Luke 13:6
He spake also this parable ; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.

Luke 14:7
And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto them.

Luke 15:3
And he spake this parable unto them, saying,

Luke 18:1
And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;

Luke 18:9
And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

Luke 19:11
And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable , because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

Luke 20:9
Then began he to speak to the people this parable ; A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time.

Luke 20:19
And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.

Luke 21:29
And he spake to them a parable ; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

John 10:6
This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

Clearly the authors of the Gospels identify a text as a parable. Luke 16 in NOT identified as a parable.

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Now you made me pull out the context matters graphics.

The popular yet erroneous teaching about Rich Man and Lazarus has succeeded to both strike fear in the hearts of Christians and drive countless others to atheism, because those who refuse to recognize this passage in Luke 16 as the parable that it is use it to advance the false idea of Eternal Torment - a doctrine of devils - because they know then can't substantiate a doctrine on an uninterpreted parable. Here's the other side of the story:

Where are all the other parables with names attached to them?

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I think the lost man's dialogue with Abraham would go something like this in
our day:

"I beg you, father Abraham; send Lazarus to my five brothers, let him warn
them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment."

"Your brothers have Christ and the Apostles; they can listen to them."

"No father, but if someone from the dead goes to my brothers, they will
reconsider."

"If your brothers won't listen to Christ and the Apostles, neither will they
listen to someone back from the dead."

It's likely that some people's relations would listen to someone back from
the dead, especially one of their own family whose funeral they attended.
But alas, all five of the lost man's brothers were incorrigible.
_

Isaiah 66:24 which is the last verse of that book makes reference to the worms that do not die and fires that are not quenched.

So, now "worms" are immortal along with what you claim is the "immortal soul of man"? Isaiah's not talking about perpetually eaten alive people - he's talking about the same thing Jesus did: that the wicked will be consumed by maggots and fire until there's nothing left to eat or burn....unless you believe in the eternal life for worms.

So, now "worms" are immortal along with what you claim is the "immortal soul of man"? Isaiah's not talking about perpetually eaten alive people - he's talking about the same thing Jesus did: that the wicked will be consumed by maggots and fire until there's nothing left to eat or burn....unless you believe in the eternal life for worms.
[QUOTE="Aerials1978, post: 4751212, member: 292028:] Daniel speaks of people raised to everlasting life and everlasting contempt in chapter 12.