Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

[Runningman]

Luke 16
19-31 “There was once a rich man who used to dress in purple and fine linen and lead a life of daily luxury. And there was a poor man called Lazarus who was put down at his gate. He was covered with sores. He used to long to be fed with the scraps from the rich man’s table. Yes, and the dogs used to come and lick his sores. Well, it happened that the poor man died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And from among the dead he looked up and saw Abraham a long way away, and Lazarus in his arms. ‘Father Abraham!’ he cried out, ‘please pity me. Send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in agony in these flames.’ But Abraham replied, ‘Remember, my son, that you used to have the good things in your lifetime, while Lazarus suffered the bad. Now he is being comforted here, while you are in agony. And besides this, a great chasm has been set between you and us, so that those who want to go to you from this side cannot do so, and people cannot come to us from your side.’ At this he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house for I have five brothers. He could warn them about all this and prevent their coming to this place of torture.’ But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets: they can listen to them.’ ‘Ah no, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘if only someone were to go to them from the dead, they would change completely.’ But Abraham told him, ‘If they will not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they would not be convinced even if somebody were to rise from the dead.’”

We know that this story is about the grave, not Heaven and Hell as we know of it. There is nothing in the text that says it is a parable. The only one's who came centuries later are those that deny that Hell is eternal punishment Matthew 25:46. I do not remember the first person who taught that, but I think it was after 1500 AD.

Maybe, someone knows.

I would look at the earliest writings of the church (aside from the Bible of course) to get an idea of what people were teaching and believing. Irenaeus of Lyons is a second century church father, Constantine was in the third century and they both taught conditional immortality or what some people call annihilationism. There's probably more, I only quickly dug up these references.

Edit: see also Ignatius of Antioch and Arnobius of Sicca.

 

[tigerwillow17]

So if the Bible is not supposed to contradict itself, then how can we believe that this story in Luke 16 is to be taken literally and at the same time believe that Ecclesiastes 9:5,6, which states: "For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun." is also true?

If this story is taken literally, then by default wouldn't we also have to believe that after death we can still experience pain and torment? Wouldn't pain and torment be considered a part of "sharing in anything done under the sun"? This would mean that we have to make a decision of which "truth" is the real truth. I don't think this is a safe way to approach the Bible. Once we start deciding which verses hold "the truth" and which ones do not, then we are putting ourselves in the position of God who has the only right to determine what is truth and what is not, since He is the original author.

Instead, when we come across what appears to be a contradiction, it is much safer to use the passage that is stated much more directly as a reference point and ask God to help us understand how the two passages can fit together without being at odds with each other.

Personally, I believe the story is not about what happens to us after death, but rather what we should be focusing on before we die. Jesus was using this scenario as a word picture to help His audience (including readers through the ages) to more clearly grasp the lesson that once we die we can no longer go back and change the decisions we made before death. So, right now, while we are still living, we need to take advantage of every opportunity we have to be good stewards of our time and resources.

 

[Webers.Home]

.

Clearly the point Abraham was trying to make was that it’s better to obey
the Law and Prophets than to die and get to the afterlife and find out the
hard way that it’s too late to go back and fix it.

I think the lost man's dialogue with Abraham would go something like this in
our day:

"I beg you, father Abraham; send Lazarus to my five brothers, let him warn
them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment."

"Your brothers have Christ and the Apostles; they can listen to them."

"No father, but if someone from the dead goes to my brothers, they will
reconsider."

"If your brothers won't listen to Christ and the Apostles, neither will they
listen to someone back from the dead."

It's likely that some people's relations would listen to someone back from
the dead, especially one of their own family whose funeral they attended.
But alas, all five of the lost man's brothers were incorrigible.
_

 

[JohnRH]

So if the Bible is not supposed to contradict itself, then how can we believe that this story in Luke 16 is to be taken literally and at the same time believe that Ecclesiastes 9:5,6, which states: "For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun." is also true?

If this story is taken literally, then by default wouldn't we also have to believe that after death we can still experience pain and torment? Wouldn't pain and torment be considered a part of "sharing in anything done under the sun"? This would mean that we have to make a decision of which "truth" is the real truth. I don't think this is a safe way to approach the Bible. Once we start deciding which verses hold "the truth" and which ones do not, then we are putting ourselves in the position of God who has the only right to determine what is truth and what is not, since He is the original author.

Instead, when we come across what appears to be a contradiction, it is much safer to use the passage that is stated much more directly as a reference point and ask God to help us understand how the two passages can fit together without being at odds with each other.

Personally, I believe the story is not about what happens to us after death, but rather what we should be focusing on before we die. Jesus was using this scenario as a word picture to help His audience (including readers through the ages) to more clearly grasp the lesson that once we die we can no longer go back and change the decisions we made before death. So, right now, while we are still living, we need to take advantage of every opportunity we have to be good stewards of our time and resources.

I think a better translation is "portion":
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Eccl 9:5-6 (KJV)
The dead no longer know anything about what's going on on earth (under the sun). Their portion is conscious torment and hopelessness in hell - and they know that full well. So there's no contradiction.

 

[Runningman]

So if the Bible is not supposed to contradict itself, then how can we believe that this story in Luke 16 is to be taken literally and at the same time believe that Ecclesiastes 9:5,6, which states: "For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun." is also true?

If this story is taken literally, then by default wouldn't we also have to believe that after death we can still experience pain and torment? Wouldn't pain and torment be considered a part of "sharing in anything done under the sun"? This would mean that we have to make a decision of which "truth" is the real truth. I don't think this is a safe way to approach the Bible. Once we start deciding which verses hold "the truth" and which ones do not, then we are putting ourselves in the position of God who has the only right to determine what is truth and what is not, since He is the original author.

Instead, when we come across what appears to be a contradiction, it is much safer to use the passage that is stated much more directly as a reference point and ask God to help us understand how the two passages can fit together without being at odds with each other.

Personally, I believe the story is not about what happens to us after death, but rather what we should be focusing on before we die. Jesus was using this scenario as a word picture to help His audience (including readers through the ages) to more clearly grasp the lesson that once we die we can no longer go back and change the decisions we made before death. So, right now, while we are still living, we need to take advantage of every opportunity we have to be good stewards of our time and resources.

I appreciate how you have a balanced and open approach to scripture. I agree with how you say the Bible should be interpreted and understood.

 

[Runningman]

I think a better translation is "portion":
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Eccl 9:5-6 (KJV)
The dead no longer know anything about what's going on on earth (under the sun). Their portion is conscious torment and hopelessness in hell - and they know that full well. So there's no contradiction.

There is not enough evidence from the parable of the rich man and Lazarus to conclude the rich man was literally in torment. What I see, despite his claims of being in torment, is he is able to calmly and articulately dictate intelligibly in a discussion. No wailing or gnashing of teeth to be heard of in this parable. He’s not in much torment at all.

Furthermore, if this parable is literal then torment is close enough to the place of comfort to hear the occupants in flames demand help day and night. Good luck enjoying your place of comfort watching your unsaved neighbors, friends, and family burn.

Of course, I’m being a bit facetious. This is absolutely a parable because none of what it literally says meshes well with other scriptural sources.

 

[Aerials1978]

There is not enough evidence from the parable of the rich man and Lazarus to conclude the rich man was literally in torment. What I see, despite his claims of being in torment, is he is able to calmly and articulately dictate intelligibly in a discussion. No wailing or gnashing of teeth to be heard of in this parable. He’s not in much torment at all.

Furthermore, if this parable is literal then torment is close enough to the place of comfort to hear the occupants in flames demand help day and night. Good luck enjoying your place of comfort watching your unsaved neighbors, friends, and family burn.

Of course, I’m being a bit facetious. This is absolutely a parable because none of what it literally says meshes well with other scriptural sources.

I think what is being lost in this forum is that Jesus is not just giving a warning, but describing what is reality. Yes hell is real and yes a great number of people will end up there.

 

[TheLearner]

I would look at the earliest writings of the church (aside from the Bible of course) to get an idea of what people were teaching and believing. Irenaeus of Lyons is a second century church father, Constantine was in the third century and they both taught conditional immortality or what some people call annihilationism. There's probably more, I only quickly dug up these references.

Edit: see also Ignatius of Antioch and Arnobius of Sicca.

quotes from primary sources please. newadvent.org

 

[TheLearner]

So if the Bible is not supposed to contradict itself, then how can we believe that this story in Luke 16 is to be taken literally and at the same time believe that Ecclesiastes 9:5,6, which states: "For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun." is also true?

If this story is taken literally, then by default wouldn't we also have to believe that after death we can still experience pain and torment? Wouldn't pain and torment be considered a part of "sharing in anything done under the sun"? This would mean that we have to make a decision of which "truth" is the real truth. I don't think this is a safe way to approach the Bible. Once we start deciding which verses hold "the truth" and which ones do not, then we are putting ourselves in the position of God who has the only right to determine what is truth and what is not, since He is the original author.

Instead, when we come across what appears to be a contradiction, it is much safer to use the passage that is stated much more directly as a reference point and ask God to help us understand how the two passages can fit together without being at odds with each other.

Personally, I believe the story is not about what happens to us after death, but rather what we should be focusing on before we die. Jesus was using this scenario as a word picture to help His audience (including readers through the ages) to more clearly grasp the lesson that once we die we can no longer go back and change the decisions we made before death. So, right now, while we are still living, we need to take advantage of every opportunity we have to be good stewards of our time and resources.

Context Matters: Your proof text simply means after we die, we are not involved with what happens on earth.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
Easy-to-Read Version
5 The living know that they will die, but the dead don’t know anything. They have no more reward. People will soon forget them. 6 After people are dead, their love, hate, and jealousy are all gone. And they will never again share in what happens on earth.

Believers who dies and are in Heaven proper, remember what happened on earth.

Revelation 6:10
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

The sleep of those in the grave is a daily sleep like we do. They clearly have an awareness like in Luke 16.

Isaiah 14:1-11
King James Version
14 For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the Lord for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.

3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the Lord shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,

4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

5 The Lord hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.

6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.

7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.

8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.

9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

 

[TheLearner]

Matthew 13:3
And he spake many things unto them in parable s, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

Matthew 13:10
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parable s?

Matthew 13:13
Therefore speak I to them in parable s: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Matthew 13:18
Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

Matthew 13:24
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

Matthew 13:31
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:

Matthew 13:33
Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Matthew 13:34
All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parable s; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Matthew 13:35
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parable s; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Matthew 13:36
Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

Matthew 13:53
And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these parable s, he departed thence.

Matthew 15:15
Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable .

Matthew 21:33
Hear another parable : There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:

Matthew 21:45
And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parable s, they perceived that he spake of them.

Matthew 22:1
And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parable s, and said,

Matthew 24:32
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Mark 3:23
And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parable s, How can Satan cast out Satan?

Mark 4:2
And he taught them many things by parable s, and said unto them in his doctrine,

Mark 4:10
And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable .

Mark 4:11
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parable s:

Mark 4:13
And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable ? and how then will ye know all parable s?

Mark 4:33
And with many such parable s spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it.

Mark 4:34
But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

Mark 7:17
And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable .

Mark 12:1
And he began to speak unto them by parable s. A certain man planted a vineyard, and set an hedge about it, and digged a place for the winefat, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country.

Mark 12:12
And they sought to lay hold on him, but feared the people: for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them: and they left him, and went their way.

Mark 13:28
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:

Luke 5:36
And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.

Luke 6:39
And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?

Luke 8:4
And when much people were gathered together, and were come to him out of every city, he spake by a parable :

Luke 8:9
And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?

Luke 8:10
And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parable s; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Luke 8:11
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Luke 12:16
And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:

Luke 12:41
Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?

Luke 13:6
He spake also this parable ; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.

Luke 14:7
And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto them.

Luke 15:3
And he spake this parable unto them, saying,

Luke 18:1
And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;

Luke 18:9
And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

Luke 19:11
And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable , because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

Luke 20:9
Then began he to speak to the people this parable ; A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time.

Luke 20:19
And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.

Luke 21:29
And he spake to them a parable ; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

John 10:6
This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

Clearly the authors of the Gospels identify a text as a parable. Luke 16 in NOT identified as a parable.

Now you made me pull out the context matters graphics.

 

[TheLearner]

I think what is being lost in this forum is that Jesus is not just giving a warning, but describing what is reality. Yes hell is real and yes a great number of people will end up there.

Matthew 25:46
King James Version
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[John146]

Matthew 13:3
And he spake many things unto them in parable s, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

Matthew 13:10
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parable s?

Matthew 13:13
Therefore speak I to them in parable s: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Matthew 13:18
Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

Matthew 13:24
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

Matthew 13:31
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:

Matthew 13:33
Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Matthew 13:34
All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parable s; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Matthew 13:35
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parable s; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Matthew 13:36
Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

Matthew 13:53
And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these parable s, he departed thence.

Matthew 15:15
Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable .

Matthew 21:33
Hear another parable : There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:

Matthew 21:45
And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parable s, they perceived that he spake of them.

Matthew 22:1
And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parable s, and said,

Matthew 24:32
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Mark 3:23
And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parable s, How can Satan cast out Satan?

Mark 4:2
And he taught them many things by parable s, and said unto them in his doctrine,

Mark 4:10
And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable .

Mark 4:11
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parable s:

Mark 4:13
And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable ? and how then will ye know all parable s?

Mark 4:33
And with many such parable s spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it.

Mark 4:34
But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

Mark 7:17
And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable .

Mark 12:1
And he began to speak unto them by parable s. A certain man planted a vineyard, and set an hedge about it, and digged a place for the winefat, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country.

Mark 12:12
And they sought to lay hold on him, but feared the people: for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them: and they left him, and went their way.

Mark 13:28
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:

Luke 5:36
And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.

Luke 6:39
And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?

Luke 8:4
And when much people were gathered together, and were come to him out of every city, he spake by a parable :

Luke 8:9
And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?

Luke 8:10
And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parable s; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Luke 8:11
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Luke 12:16
And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:

Luke 12:41
Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?

Luke 13:6
He spake also this parable ; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.

Luke 14:7
And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto them.

Luke 15:3
And he spake this parable unto them, saying,

Luke 18:1
And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;

Luke 18:9
And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

Luke 19:11
And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable , because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

Luke 20:9
Then began he to speak to the people this parable ; A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time.

Luke 20:19
And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.

Luke 21:29
And he spake to them a parable ; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

John 10:6
This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

Clearly the authors of the Gospels identify a text as a parable. Luke 16 in NOT identified as a parable.

View attachment 235272View attachment 235273View attachment 235274

View attachment 235275

View attachment 235276

Now you made me pull out the context matters graphics.

Where are all the other parables with names attached to them?

 

[Webers.Home]

.
• Luke 16:24-25 . . He cried out and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on
me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool
off my tongue; for I am in agony in this flame.

How did the rich man expect Lazarus to come near him with some water?
Did he it for granted that the beggar would agree to sacrificing his own
personal safety?

To think there are actually people in this world who truly believe that the
underprivileged exist solely for their benefit; sort of like commodities.
_

 

[Amanuensis]

The popular yet erroneous teaching about Rich Man and Lazarus has succeeded to both strike fear in the hearts of Christians and drive countless others to atheism, because those who refuse to recognize this passage in Luke 16 as the parable that it is use it to advance the false idea of Eternal Torment - a doctrine of devils - because they know then can't substantiate a doctrine on an uninterpreted parable. Here's the other side of the story:

I didn't watch the video, because I came to chat.

For arguments sake, I will concede that this might be a parable. Now what do parables have in common? They use examples from familiar things of the audience to drive home a point, usually the lesson is toward the end of the parable, often sort of a "ah Ha" moment.

Now if we analyze this as a parable it becomes clear that the lesson is that if the brothers don't read the bible (Moses and the prophets) to learn about a place of torment that awaits the wicked then they won't believe in a place of torment that awaits the wicked even if Lazarus rose from the dead and appeared to them and told them about it.

The main lesson being that If they don't believe what the bible says about a place of torment awaiting the wicked after they die then even if one rises from the dead they will not believe that there is a place of torment awaiting them when they die.

Luke 16: 28for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”

It is very clear that the rich man wanted Lazarus to warn them about this place of torment. He expected Lazarus to tell them that he was in a place of torment and not to come there. He expected them to repent because Lazarus warned them about this place of torment.

The Parable's lesson is that the BIBLE teaches about a place of torment. Let them read about it in Moses and the Prophets. They warn of a place of torment for the wicked in the afterlife. If they don't believe this by reading Moses and the Prophets they will not believe it if Lazarus warns them about it.


This PARABLE teaches that both Moses and the Prophets (Scripture) warn that the way of life is Above for the righteous to escape the Hell beneath and many such verses were in the bible for them to meditate upon but if they do not have the heart to want to know what the Bible teaches the warning from Lazarus ABOUT THIS PLACE OF TORMENT is not going to change their attitudes.

Repentance of wickedness will come when one surrenders to the holiness of God and the truth of the scriptures and not from ghosts or scary supernatural experiences BUT PAY ATTENTION TO THE PARABLE. The PARABLE teaches that there a place of torment for the wicked mentioned by Moses and the Prophets.

Where do you think that Jesus Audience got the idea from? The idea was familiar to them which is why Jesus could use it as a parable.
Something familiar to them about a place of torment for the wicked Jesus picked up on for this parable. I mean that would HAVE to be your view if you beileve it is a true parable.

Now if Jesus is merely using something that was a popular view among them, a myth if you will, and then using it to teach a parable, his parable still ended up teaching that "if you don't believe what Moses and the Prophets says about the place of torment, neither will you believe if one rose from the dead and told you about it.

It's not that hard to understand in Parable form or otherwise. It is impossible to remove the idea of a place of torment for the wicked dead from the lesson in parable form.

Now if the rich man had said, "Let lazarus return and tell them how wicked they are and how they need to repent etc etc, or if he had told him "send Lazarus to tell them how wonderful it is to sit down at the table with Abraham, so that they will go there too, " then one could argue against the place of torment, but he specifically says "so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ And by thus saying paints a clear picture of his idea that Lazarus coming back from the dead and specifically warning his brothers that their brother was in a place of torment and they would go to unless they repent is the intended message he expected Lazarus to deliver.

And so even in parable, the lesson is that there is a place of torment for the wicked dead and Moses and Prophets warn of it, and that is enough for people to find repentance if they will believe the word of God.

This whole "Parable" objection has never removed the obvious lesson to those who understand how parables work in Hebrew literature. Those that attempt to use it to suggest that there is no place of torment for the wicked dead violate the mechanism of a parable in literature in their attempts and look quite uninformed in the end.

 

[CS1]

The idea of Jesus speaking parables as not being literal is not always the case contextually. Jesus told Parables as HE said, to keep hidden truth to those who HE did not want to know; and for those who He did want to know. IN addition, Jesus always told a parable after speaking the truth and used Parables to drive the point home.

• Jesus spoke of Hell then told a parable Matthew Chapter 25
• Jesus spoke of faith and told a parable Matthew chapter 17, Luke chapter 11
• Jesus taught of HIS coming then told a parable. Matthew 24 & 25
• Jesus taught on the word of God told a Parable Luke chapter 8

Parables alone are not the full context of why Jesus told them. Before spoke a parable and after He spoke a parable must be taken into account. How can one know the authorial intent without looking at 1. the sentence, 2. the verse, 3. Paragraph, 4. the chapter 5. the Book and 6. the whole Bible.

If one takes the parable as an allegory or a metaphor at the expense of the literal meaning Jesus had said before is going to miss a spiritual truth.

 

[TheLearner]

Where are all the other parables with names attached to them?

Really, read the verses I posted.

 

[A-Sword-Cometh]

.



I think the lost man's dialogue with Abraham would go something like this in
our day:

"I beg you, father Abraham; send Lazarus to my five brothers, let him warn
them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment."

"Your brothers have Christ and the Apostles; they can listen to them."

"No father, but if someone from the dead goes to my brothers, they will
reconsider."

"If your brothers won't listen to Christ and the Apostles, neither will they
listen to someone back from the dead."

It's likely that some people's relations would listen to someone back from
the dead, especially one of their own family whose funeral they attended.
But alas, all five of the lost man's brothers were incorrigible.
_

It would still be Moses and the Prophets because the Lord Jesus he is the one that rose from the dead. If they cannot believe Moses and the Prophets warnings about the eternal torment in the hellfire then neither will they believe the Christ, Jesus, who is the only one that can save them from it.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Isaiah 66:24 which is the last verse of that book makes reference to the worms that do not die and fires that are not quenched.

So, now "worms" are immortal along with what you claim is the "immortal soul of man"? Isaiah's not talking about perpetually eaten alive people - he's talking about the same thing Jesus did: that the wicked will be consumed by maggots and fire until there's nothing left to eat or burn....unless you believe in the eternal life for worms.
[QUOTE="Aerials1978, post: 4751212, member: 292028:] Daniel speaks of people raised to everlasting life and everlasting contempt in chapter 12. [/QUOTE] Does Hitler have to be alive for us to have contempt for him? No. Neither do the wicked have to be alive for the righteous to have everlasting contempt either. I think every time someone sees the nails in Jesus' hands and feet, they will remember with contempt the wicked who caused His suffering.
Jesus talks about eternal punishment in Matthew 25:46.[/QUOTE] What's the punishment? IT'S DEATH! Not "eternal torment", but death. If the wages of sin was eternal torment, the only way Jesus could take away our sin debt would be that HE BE ETERNALLY TORMENTED. Please think about that for a while.

 

[Amanuensis]

So, now "worms" are immortal along with what you claim is the "immortal soul of man"? Isaiah's not talking about perpetually eaten alive people - he's talking about the same thing Jesus did: that the wicked will be consumed by maggots and fire until there's nothing left to eat or burn....unless you believe in the eternal life for worms.

The Parable lesson was...."if they won't believe the scriptures about THIS PLACE OF TORMENT" then they won't believe if Lazarus came back from the dead and shocked them with a supernatural appearance and "Warned them about the place of Torment" that awaited them. Wasn't that the plain meaning of the PARABLE? How could it mean anything but that in parable form?

 

[TheLearner]

So, now "worms" are immortal along with what you claim is the "immortal soul of man"? Isaiah's not talking about perpetually eaten alive people - he's talking about the same thing Jesus did: that the wicked will be consumed by maggots and fire until there's nothing left to eat or burn....unless you believe in the eternal life for worms.
[QUOTE="Aerials1978, post: 4751212, member: 292028:] Daniel speaks of people raised to everlasting life and everlasting contempt in chapter 12.

Does Hitler have to be alive for us to have contempt for him? No. Neither do the wicked have to be alive for the righteous to have everlasting contempt either. I think every time someone sees the nails in Jesus' hands and feet, they will remember with contempt the wicked who caused His suffering.
Jesus talks about eternal punishment in Matthew 25:46.[/QUOTE] What's the punishment? IT'S DEATH! Not "eternal torment", but death. If the wages of sin was eternal torment, the only way Jesus could take away our sin debt would be that HE BE ETERNALLY TORMENTED. Please think about that for a while.[/QUOTE]

You ignored the main point as I expect by a dishonest person. The main point is the dead are alive and aware of their surroundings. Since Isaiah says the worms do not die, then that is in effect what he meant because they reproduce.

Mark 9:48
The worms that eat the people in hell[grave] never die. The fire there is never stopped.

If you want to call Jesus a liar, don't stand next to me at the final judgement.

You are right, "Jesus talks about eternal punishment in Matthew 25:46"