New argument for Jesus being God

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Jesus said some things that imply "thus says the Lord" for example:

• John 8:26 . .He that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those
things which I have heard of Him.

• John 8:28 . . I do nothing on my own initiative, but I speak these things
as the Father taught me.

• John 12:49 . . I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me,
He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

• John 14:24 . .The word which you hear is not mine, but the Father's who
sent me.

The Bible verifies that the things Jesus taught were exactly the same things
that God would teach were He here in person to speak for Himself.

• Heb 1:1-2 . . In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the
prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days He has
spoken to us by His son

It's sometimes alleged that Jesus was a radical (a.k.a. an extremist). But the
Bible attests that Jesus was neither radical nor extreme, rather, he was
conservative.

• John 4:34 . . My food, said Jesus, is to do the will of him who sent me

• John 6:38 . . I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will
of Him who sent me

• John 8:28 . . I do nothing on my own initiative

• John 8:29 . . He that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I
do always those things that please Him.

• John 10:30 . . I and my Father are unified.
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• John 3:34 . . He is sent by God. He speaks God's words, for God's spirit is
upon him without measure or limit.
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Isaiah 9:6 as quoted is slightly off. It should be "wonderful counselor".
As per Cambridge exegesis (https://biblehub.com/commentaries/isaiah/9-6.htm) - ... Wonderful, Counseller] Since each of the other names is compounded of two words, these expressions are also to be taken together as forming a single designation—Wonder-Counseller.
It uses strong's H6382. Definition: "a wonder" noun

Judges 13:18 uses strong's H6383. Definition: "wonderful, incomprehensible" adjective

Again there is no evidence for Jesus. It is more vernacular that theological. God was speaking through an angel, that is why Samson's mum and dad are not dead.

I think you have it backwards. Discernment does not bring knowledge, but having wisdom brings discernment.
Hebrews 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

What is the first step of discernment? Test everything and don't listen to those who refuse to reason through their sin.
1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

By Adams action, access to the Tree of Life was denied.
Romans 5:12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
What are the wages of sin? Death

By obeying Christ, we will avoid sin. Sin is a choice not a intrinsic quality of men. One is responsible for one's own actions (not this total depravity doctrine)
Romans 5:18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
1John 3:4Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
James 1:14but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

I once had an argument against the notion that God commands evil spirits (absolute sovereignty people I believe). God does not consort with evil. To think otherwise is damnable. Very good verse! I'll take it!
James 1:13When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

The word "corruption" is the vernacular for decay. There are spiritual ramifications, but on first approach it has noting to do with the incorruptibility of Christ. Consider Berean Study Bible
Acts 2:31Foreseeing this, David spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did His body see decay. διαφθοράν. (Decay as in dead flesh).

As the saying goes, "rules for thee, none for me". Jesus leads by example not by pious words.
Once again Romans 8:3 "...in the likeness of sinful man, ..."
He is born. יֶלֶד son
He governs. מִשְׂרָה rules
His names are
“one who counsels wonderful things.” He advises good things based on obedience to the Father as we must.
“God-like Hero”. He overcomes overwhelming forces of this world as we must.
"Father of Eternity. " He is the firstborn of the resurrection as we must follow.
"Prince of Peace". He is the King of the Iron Sceptre as we must obey.

I wrote down a bunch of questions a few years ago to ask someone who questioned who Jesus was.

Maybe it will help?


Why does God call Jesus God in Heb. 1:8 if he is not God?
How was it possible for Jesus to know all things (John 21:17)? When only God is omnicient?
How can Jesus know all men (John 16:30)? if he is but a mere mortal man?
How can Jesus be everywhere (Matt. 28:20)? When only God is omnipresent?
How can Jesus, the Christ, dwell in you (Col. 1:27)?
How can Jesus be the exact representation of the Nature of God (Heb. 1:3)?
How can He be our only Lord and Master (Jude 4)?
How can Jesus create all things (Col. 1:16-17), yet it is God who created all things by Himself (Isaiah 44:24)?
Why was Jesus worshiped (Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; 28:9; John 9:35-38; Heb. 1:6) when He says to worship God only (Matt. 4:10)?
In the OT God was seen (Exodus 6:2-3; 24:9-11; Num. 12:6-9; Acts 7:2), yet no man can see God (Exodus 33:20; John 1:18). It was not the Father that was seen in the OT (John 6:46). Who, then were they seeing?
why did Thomas call Jesus God (john 20 - 28 - 29) and Jesus tell him he was correct if he was not God?

This, I believe, are the best Scripture verses, in all Scripture, to prove Jesus Christ was/is God:

Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;
Col 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him;
Col 1:17 and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.

So Christ, 1) Is the Image of God -- 2) All things were created in Him -- 3) All things were created through Him -- 4) All things were created for Him -- 5) He is preeminent over all things -- 6) All things exist, moment by moment, because of Him.

These verses echo what is in John 1:1-4:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Adam did not decay before the fall - the Tree of Life sustained him.
The forbidden fruit was explained to Adam, not Eve. Gen 2:15-17
Eve was created after from the "rib" Gen 2:21-22
Eve ate first - did the sky fall? no. When Adam ate it, there was an effect.
Gen 3:6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
Adam brought sin to the world but Eve was deceived first.

posthuman said:

did God originally create the earth full of decay? or is such corruption inextricably linked with sin?

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Consider the rhetoric Ecclesiates 3:21, Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
The answer per Ecc12:7before the dust returns to the ground from which it came and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
For the first 5 days, there was no Image of God until man came along. The body was the vessel of something Holy and was afforded glory (immortality at the Garden of Eden. )
Decay was prevalent in the first 5 days as shown by the fossil records. Eden was endowed with the Tree of Life and decay was rendered meaningless or moot with respect to man. The fall removed access to the Tree of Life, man became part of nature again where decay existed.

posthuman said:

why is the ground cursed, rather than Adam or Eve? what is the extent of it?

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The earth means many things.
Consider the literal dirt of the earth.
Eden had fruits to sustain the body in abundance. This allowed Adam to commune with everything and most of all God. What hunter-gatherer tribe created any advanced civilization? None that I can think as It cannot because there is no leisure time to do other things. What about the modern society? Not a good situation either It is said that were are 10 meals from chaos if the logistical trucking system ever collapsed (based on walmart supercentres). We are seeing the failure of shipping system because of COVID ( JIT logistics - no storage). California is a seeing a drought that might last for years - the bread basket of the west( no storage of surface water were built because they thought climate change would render it useless) . The funny thing is all this stems from the knowledge of man. The dirt of the earth is cursed because we listen to the wisdom of man. We can not sustain the earth and sea and in turn it cannot sustain us.

Consider as ancestral soil from which we spring. Gen 2:7 the soul = breath of life + soil of the ground. The breath of life is God's (Gen 7:22, Prov 20:27, Isa 30:33). The soil is the remaining ingredient. The substance apart from God's breath is cursed. Consider Genetic Entropy: John C. Sanford (he is a Christian) He plotted the life span of all the patriarchs with time and found it followed a decaying curve. The DNA of mankind is slowly degenerating. Scientist say that we acquire ABOUT 40 mutations a generation - all of them detrimental (1 in 10000 is beneficial). Without the Tree of Life, mankinds genome will decay till we are extinct. The natural state of man.

posthuman said:

how does Romans 8 fit there?

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Adam's physical world was 2 persons. The Spirit of God gave 1 condition to the Adamic covenant. He broke it because of Eve. We live with multiple distractions.
Romans 8:1-3 reiterates the yoke of Christ is light Matthew 11:30.
Romans 8:4-8 The covenant as per Mark 12:30-31 can only be fulfilled if we obey the Spirit of God. If you obey the man's doctrines, you will end up with 2 masters Matthew 6:24, hating one over the other. Considerations of the flesh (i.e. Adam and Eve with the fruit) can never ultimately fulfill your obligations to God. Render all Glory to God, the rest will fall in place.

Scripturally, Jesus is the Branch of Jesse (Isaiah 11) and Scion of David (Jeremiah 23:5).
The Branch of Jesse was from the mother Mary.
As Joseph was of Judah (Luke 2:4) but was forbidden (Jeremiah 22:30), the scionship came from God.
Legally and prophetically it was necessary.
He is the literal Son of God and the son of David (God smeared David and David begat Jesus)

As a conjecture, how else can you fit an intellect and power like the Word. You need a perfect body. The DNA had to be completely rewritten.

Would it not be better, to bring this back to a simpler understanding?

Sin was already in the Garden because the Serpent was present. Eve was aware of what God had told Adam and spoke it to the Serpent, therefore, we can logically deduce that Adam told her. So the Serpent was the source of the Temptation and lie. Eve broke the Commandment because she thought the knowledge of "good and evil" would somehow elevate Adam and hers standing to be more like God. Which she thought would be an improvement. Adam received that which was forbidden because he trusted in Eve, more than God.

Adam was the first created human and as such was mankind's Federal Head. What he would do, all humanity would do. Eve was created for Adam and as such, did not stand in this position. Thus, everything began to be judged after Adam fell.

The most notable and immediate consequence of the fall, was their fear of God. Combined with a need to blame the other for their error. Eve blamed the Serpent. Adam blamed Eve and God.

This statement, of yours, is a denial of Scripture: "By obeying Christ, we will avoid sin. Sin is a choice not a intrinsic quality of men. One is responsible for one's own actions (not this total depravity doctrine)"

Scripture clearly teaches, man's inability, in his present fallen nature.

It is implied in John 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. The translated section in red, does not mean prohibitive restraint but inability restraint. Thus, "No man is able to come..."

Confirmed in the epistle to the Romans: Rom 1:20-23a For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man...

Proved by the results in: Rom 3:9-12 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none with understanding, there is none that is seeking after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

All of these Scriptures and many, many more prove the results of mankind's fallen nature. A spiritually depraved nature. As to the SIN nature being present in us - there is no better place to go than to Paul:

Rom 7:15-20 For that which I do I know not: for not what I would, that do I practice; but what I hate, that I do. But if what I would not, that I do, I consent unto the law that it is good. So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me. For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but to do that which is good is not. For the good which I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I commit. But if what I would not, that I do, it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me.

The sin nature, is so ingrained in our fleshly bodies, we must put off these bodies, in order that we may enter Eternity.

Sin and inability, were not intrinsic in Adam at Creation but became a part of our makeup upon his fall.

I haven't read all the posts before but the reason i know that Jesus is God is that the separation that sin made between mankind and God needed to be filled, and for Jesus to fill the great gap, and reconnect mankind with God, He could only do so if He was 100% man and 100% God.

Here are a couple of more references to Jesus being God:

When Philip asked Jesus to show him the Father, Jesus said: He who has seen me has seen the Father. In other words: “Phillip, if you have seen me, you have seen God” (John 14:8-10, above)

And, we know that Jesus is the very Word of God:

John 1:1 “In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.”

The problem with some of the arguments on this thread, as to whether Jesus is God or not seem to be related to the fact that some Christians do not believe in the concept of the Trinity. Trinity of God is a scriptural concept used to express the collective unity and character of God: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. It is considered to be a divine mystery beyond human comprehension.

Most Christians do recognize the Trinity as the Nature of God, Three Persons in One God. It's an impossible concept for humans to understand. One God, but the Three Persons are in fact separate in some ways. For instance, in the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus Will was not the same as the Father's. Jesus asked the Father to take this cup from Him, but immediately added, Thy Will be done and not Mine. Also, when asked when the final end of the world would occur, Jesus answered that only the Father knew and that Jesus Himself didn't know.

Again, God the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit are One God, united as One God.

If you don't believe in the concept of the Trinity, One God in Three Persons, then it's almost impossible to see that Jesus could be God. The reason being is that AntiTrinitarians see God the Father as God. Since there is only One God, then Jesus can't be God.

Here is a list of 9 faith groups that reject the concept of the Trinity: Non Trinitarian Faith Groups That Reject the Trinity (learnreligions.com)

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Can someone answer my question?

what was your question?

No, but neither "toilets"....

Federal Headship implies the original sin doctrine. The original sin doctrine is contrary to the Scriptures. It is not just unScriptural.