What are you talking about? The blind man Jesus heals in front of the temple is one of the most clear examples God is sovereign over everything. Jesus said this man was born blind so Gods glory could be seen in that moment, so even though people may think it's "mean" or that the God they worship would never make a place where these things happen on purpose by His will. I think this is a weak position honestly because that would mean that they have a God that creates and sets all this stuff in motion, but is now powerless to do anything about it or worst, just doesn't care. I don't really see too much difference in the two really, as far as making God seem a monster if you want to.
everything is predestined?
- Thread starter WannabeWinner
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Romans 9:11-29
King James Version
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
King James Version
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
God's glory is seen in healing the blind man not in causing his blindness showing that is not God's will that any should be born blind. God made eyes to SEE and He made ears to hear.
It was not God's will that man should sin, He faithfully warned against, He warns against it today, rising up early He faithfully warns and calls mankind back to Himself that He can save him and heal him and fix him up.
It was not God's will that man should sin, He faithfully warned against, He warns against it today, rising up early He faithfully warns and calls mankind back to Himself that He can save him and heal him and fix him up.
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Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
God calls things that have not happened yet as though they already happened for if it is a plan of God to happen in the future it is the same as if it happened in the beginning for it will surely come to pass with no hindrance.
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
All the works were finished from the foundation of the world for it was all set in motion and God did not go along with new ways as time went on but it was already concrete for the future at the beginning.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Luk 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation.
The Lamb was slain, and the kingdom prepared, and the blood of the prophets shed from the foundation of the world although they were future events.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father) full of grace and truth.
In the beginning was the plan of God to come in the future in flesh, and without that plan God would of not created anything He created for Jesus is the reason creation is successful eternal life and to judge the angels and people.
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.
Jesus is the beginning of creation although He was not born until the future for all creation hinges on Jesus Christ.
But Jesus as God has no beginning but the creation of the man Christ Jesus is the first plan God had before He started creation.
But I believe we have free will to choose salvation or not because God's kingdom is true love and He is not evil to condemn people that have no choice but to reject the truth.
When the Bible says predestination I believe it means God already had the plan to give salvation to mankind before He started creation but this salvation is to whoever wants this salvation which the Bible says the Spirit and bride say, Come, and anybody that wants that salvation can have it.
God calls things that have not happened yet as though they already happened for if it is a plan of God to happen in the future it is the same as if it happened in the beginning for it will surely come to pass with no hindrance.
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
All the works were finished from the foundation of the world for it was all set in motion and God did not go along with new ways as time went on but it was already concrete for the future at the beginning.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Luk 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation.
The Lamb was slain, and the kingdom prepared, and the blood of the prophets shed from the foundation of the world although they were future events.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father) full of grace and truth.
In the beginning was the plan of God to come in the future in flesh, and without that plan God would of not created anything He created for Jesus is the reason creation is successful eternal life and to judge the angels and people.
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.
Jesus is the beginning of creation although He was not born until the future for all creation hinges on Jesus Christ.
But Jesus as God has no beginning but the creation of the man Christ Jesus is the first plan God had before He started creation.
But I believe we have free will to choose salvation or not because God's kingdom is true love and He is not evil to condemn people that have no choice but to reject the truth.
When the Bible says predestination I believe it means God already had the plan to give salvation to mankind before He started creation but this salvation is to whoever wants this salvation which the Bible says the Spirit and bride say, Come, and anybody that wants that salvation can have it.
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Absolutely positively NOT!
In fact.....this is the Genesis 3 (and everywhere else too!) LIE OF SATAN. Satan is "merchandising" the lie that we are robots, we do not have "true life" and the God is a cosmic tyrant. THEREFORE HE (SATAN) CANNOT BE JUDGED FOR HIS SIN! Nor can anyone else.
Eve was deceived by this specific lie of Satan....and Adam was NOT DECEIVED! The fact that Adam CHOSE to eat of the fruit (to save Eve) is another proof of free will, as was the temptation by Satan itself.
Whereas the Scripture makes it plain time and time again ENDLESSLY that ALL of Gods creation has true free will......even Satan himself.
Read Job and the interactions between God, Satan and Job and understand that FREE WILL is clearly demonstrated by ALL PARTIES.
Gen 2:16
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
In fact.....this is the Genesis 3 (and everywhere else too!) LIE OF SATAN. Satan is "merchandising" the lie that we are robots, we do not have "true life" and the God is a cosmic tyrant. THEREFORE HE (SATAN) CANNOT BE JUDGED FOR HIS SIN! Nor can anyone else.
Eve was deceived by this specific lie of Satan....and Adam was NOT DECEIVED! The fact that Adam CHOSE to eat of the fruit (to save Eve) is another proof of free will, as was the temptation by Satan itself.
Whereas the Scripture makes it plain time and time again ENDLESSLY that ALL of Gods creation has true free will......even Satan himself.
Read Job and the interactions between God, Satan and Job and understand that FREE WILL is clearly demonstrated by ALL PARTIES.
Gen 2:16
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
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The scriptures will not harmonize to include that God predestined everything that mankind does. They do harmonize that God gave all mankind the freedom to choose how they want to live their lives as they live here on earth.
God knew that none of mankind would seek him, and that none of them would do good, no not one (Ps 14:2-3), therefore, In order to have a people that would praise and honor him, He choose an elect group that should be Holy and without blame, and predestinated them to be adopted as his children, according to the good pleasure of His will (Eph 1:4-5).
God knew that none of mankind would seek him, and that none of them would do good, no not one (Ps 14:2-3), therefore, In order to have a people that would praise and honor him, He choose an elect group that should be Holy and without blame, and predestinated them to be adopted as his children, according to the good pleasure of His will (Eph 1:4-5).
I believe the Bible tells us we do NOT have free will. Our will is a slave to one of two things, we are a slave to sin, or a slave of Christ.
This is what Jesus says. We obviously have choice, we are told to chose wisely, and to obey. We are held responsible for these choices we make, so I'm not saying that we don't choose. We do choose, but our "will" is a slave to our nature. That being a sin nature of Christ nature. So when people say "free will" I understand what they mean, but the truth is we do not have "free will", only choice.
This is what Jesus says. We obviously have choice, we are told to chose wisely, and to obey. We are held responsible for these choices we make, so I'm not saying that we don't choose. We do choose, but our "will" is a slave to our nature. That being a sin nature of Christ nature. So when people say "free will" I understand what they mean, but the truth is we do not have "free will", only choice.
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Oh....and yet ANOTHER absolute proof of free will in the garden:
BOTH Adam and Eve REFUSED to eat of the tree of life after they had fallen. God THEN guarded it.....(which is His surety of his promise to redeem Adam and Eve AND US after their AND OUR confession) of the truth and covering them with Blood.
The Gen 3 trial of Adam, Eve and Satan was also completely unnecessary UNLESS all parties were acting in free will.
BOTH Adam and Eve REFUSED to eat of the tree of life after they had fallen. God THEN guarded it.....(which is His surety of his promise to redeem Adam and Eve AND US after their AND OUR confession) of the truth and covering them with Blood.
The Gen 3 trial of Adam, Eve and Satan was also completely unnecessary UNLESS all parties were acting in free will.
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So you actually think God is big enough to handle His creatures freewill and be sovereign at the same time?
And You are ABSOLUTELY right. One of satans biggest lies is that we don't have freewill. Because every time a man/woman FREELY chooses Christ, it glorifies God, reveals His Grace and mercy.................FAIRNESS in His judgments. And we are witnesses to all unbelievers and all fallen angels that God is fair and just in His judgments.
Every time someone FREELY chooses Christ, they put another nail in satans coffin.
1 Cor 6:3~~Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?
And You are ABSOLUTELY right. One of satans biggest lies is that we don't have freewill. Because every time a man/woman FREELY chooses Christ, it glorifies God, reveals His Grace and mercy.................FAIRNESS in His judgments. And we are witnesses to all unbelievers and all fallen angels that God is fair and just in His judgments.
Every time someone FREELY chooses Christ, they put another nail in satans coffin.
1 Cor 6:3~~Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?
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So you actually think God is big enough to handle His creatures freewill and be sovereign at the same time?
And You are ABSOLUTELY right. One of satans biggest lies is that we don't have freewill. Because every time a man/woman FREELY chooses Christ, it glorifies God, reveals His Grace and mercy.................FAIRNESS in His judgments. And we are witnesses to all unbelievers and all fallen angels that God is fair and just in His judgments.
Every time someone FREELY chooses Christ, they put another nail in satans coffin.
1 Cor 6:3~~Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?
And You are ABSOLUTELY right. One of satans biggest lies is that we don't have freewill. Because every time a man/woman FREELY chooses Christ, it glorifies God, reveals His Grace and mercy.................FAIRNESS in His judgments. And we are witnesses to all unbelievers and all fallen angels that God is fair and just in His judgments.
Every time someone FREELY chooses Christ, they put another nail in satans coffin.
1 Cor 6:3~~Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?
BTW.....the "predestination" spoken about in Ephesians 1.......is Gods plan of redemption for the gentiles (the 8th mystery revealed) spoken of in Ephesians 3. It is NOT about individual believers in Ephesus being predestinated. Or any other believer in particular.
As usual.....you MUST put Christ in the center of this and every scenario to get it right. Only the Trinity is outside of time, and Their plans are timeless.
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