A golden key to understand the book of Revelations

You can stay (or be left) behind and "tribulate" if that is what you believe: I think God will honor your faith. However, the vast majority of the church are going to be found worthy to take God's escape plan and escape from God's wrath poured out on the earth. We can get together during the Millennial reign and talk over how each plan worked out. I agree with you here - no sense arguing about it.

The rapture IS THE RESURRECTION for the Dead in Christ. Did Paul use the word "coming" in 1 thes. 4? CHECK!

Is the Lamb, "God?" Where does God's wrath start? In chapter 6. You have missed it again. Comfirmed because John wrote "wrath of the Lamb" in chapter 6.

No, first Thes. 4 is BEFORE tribulation. John saw the raptured church in heaven before He started the 70th week. So you missed it again.

No, the departing must come FIRST because the Holy Spirit in the church is Who restrains the man of sin. You missed it again!

No, the Antichrist shows up to CAUSE great tribulation. And The Day of His wrath starts before any part of "the trib." Again you miss the truth.

Jesus only point in mentioning Noah was the suddenness of their destruction. Same with Lot. But as a type, Noah entered the ark before the flood. You missed it yet again.

Daniel tells us the "tribulation" or the 70th week is for HIS PEOPLE. You missed it again.

"Missing it" seems to go with your posts.

You said: "No, first Thes. 4 is BEFORE tribulation. John saw the raptured church in heaven before He started the 70th week. So you missed it again."

Your statements are a opening chapter for 'Immaturity of Scripture 101' just as was laid out in Post #218 and here as well.

1 Thess 4 is AFTER and DURING Great Tribulation = Persecution and Death for bearing witness to CHRIST.

Evidence = 1 Thess 3:1-5 = comes BEFORE chapter 4

Therefore, when we could no longer endure it, we thought it good to be left in Athens alone, and sent Timothy, our brother and minister of God, and our fellow laborer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you and encourage you concerning your faith,
that no one should be shaken by these afflictions; for you yourselves know that we are appointed to this.

For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation,
just as it happened, and you know.
For this reason, when I could no longer endure it, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor might be in vain.

It happened to the Saints and Prophets of OLD, It happened to our LORD, It happened to the Saints of the NEW and it never stopped.

Wake Up Call - John 15:20 Matthew ch24
Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’
If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also.

Then they will deliver you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another, and many false prophets will arise and mislead many.

“It happened to the Saints and Prophets of OLD, It happened to our LORD, It happened to the Saints of the NEW and it never stopped.”

amen and the early church and yesterday somewhere in the world in some nation people were killed for spreading the gospel.

it will never end until Satan our accuser and persecuter is put away for good

Does rapture theology make a mockery of martyrs.
James 1:12 Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.

Philippians 1:21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

Speaking words against the Scriptures? Is teaching that one does not have to "tribulate" somewhat anti-Scriptural?

Sound similar?
Problem of evil as asked by an atheist "How can there be evil when there is an All-Loving All-Powerful God?"
Rapture as described by a rapture adherent "How can God let the elected suffer in the tribulation?"

the Laodecian church in Revelation(maybe Today as well) misses your evidence completely and the error of pre-trib makes it worse for the Body.

They have an answer for your question. It is unScriptural, but they have an answer.

Yes, i find pre-trib offensive to the Truth and is part of the deception that is coming which will catch many offguard.

This is my main concern for many in the Body = #1 Jesus answered, “See to it that no one deceives you
#2 At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another, and many false prophets will arise and mislead many.
#3 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
#4 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

pre-trib is a cascade of error that will show up as the Day approaches whereby many will be offended and give cause for stumbling and opportunity for false leaders to rise with false prophetic words.

He replied, “Don’t let anyone mislead you, for many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and saying, ‘The time has come!’ But don’t believe them. Luke 21

“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.
Matt 24

To be honest, I never thought rapture theology had blasphemous dimensions. But with all this hmming and hawing over clearly written text, I think you have certainly nailed it on the head.
Keep up the Good Fight.

You can stay (or be left) behind and "tribulate" if that is what you believe: I think God will honor your faith. However, the vast majority of the church are going to be found worthy to take God's escape plan and escape from God's wrath poured out on the earth. We can get together during the Millennial reign and talk over how each plan worked out. I agree with you here - no sense arguing about it.

you mistake tribulation which comes from the world for God's wrath, I hope we are all agreed that we are saved from God's wrath.

i was first saved in churches that taught pre-trib rapture. Never really questioned it as there was no need to.

But as my hunger for God's word increased and the Holy Spirit guiding me thru the Word - the Scriptures opened up to me.

pre-trib is contrary to this eternal commandment: Deut 4:1-2 , Proverbs 30:5-6 , Revelation 22:18-19

I’ve honestly Never even understood the idea of a ore trib rapture of where it ever came from or what scripture even suggests it . And that’s honest and straight as to my own very limited and potentially fallible view there’s not even an inkling of proof or even a clear or coherent suggestion of such a thing

when you consider the logic of it it makes no sense of there a pre tribulation rapture why did the early church all suffer so greatly and why is the world filled with constant tribulation for People actually Living out the faith ? Every year many Christians sre
Imprisoned , tortured forced to
Deny the faith under death penalty in several Countries right now North Korea has over 150, 000 Christians on consentration camps where they are killed and violated and worked to death and starved every single day that’s just one country in today’s world

Why would God allow two thousand plus years or persecution and tribulations on Christians who all live thoer earthly life and die like Paul beheaded or Peter crucified James beheaded for thier faith

the entire early church slaughtered but for a remnant who were dispersed and escaped from tomes slaughter one of the most heinous men Nero to ever live crucified of and using Christians for
Light in his garden games

why would God allow all generations to experience this and then we still every generation talk about a secret raptire saving us from tribulation on earth ???


No Ones ever been magically
Raised up and delivered into heaven through all the terrible two thousand years of wars And suffering and death for Gods people

The tribulation began when Jerusalem was destroyed it is all Over even still today nations without it have grown fat and modified Christianity to for the world Christianity doesn’t fit into the worlds philosophies it’s itterly
Opposed so Anyone who chooses to believe is going to be at odds with satans kingdom
In the world ruling the beasts and non believers of Men who serve his will in the worlds war against Gods truth


We’re gonna have hardships and be mistreated because of our belief and ways of Life that’s why there’s tribulation for Christians but only the very last left alive of the church when Jesus returns they of Course are going to be “ changed in the twinkling of an eye “ and be caught up onto the air with the Lord in the spiritual body.

but the tribulation comes because we have to spend many years in a world
That hated Jesus and hates us it’s part of Christianity we don’t belong to the world but to Gods kingdom that’s where our blessings will be but here we have both blessing and also tribulation and hardship but still we walk by faith knowing this ahead of time

salvation will Come when we part the flesh of this world when our soul is saved from death and hell and the grave

They have an answer for your question. It is unScriptural, but they have an answer.

Yes, i find pre-trib offensive to the Truth and is part of the deception that is coming which will catch many offguard.

This is my main concern for many in the Body = #1 Jesus answered, “See to it that no one deceives you
#2 At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another, and many false prophets will arise and mislead many.
#3 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
#4 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

pre-trib is a cascade of error that will show up as the Day approaches whereby many will be offended and give cause for stumbling and opportunity for false leaders to rise with false prophetic words.

He replied, “Don’t let anyone mislead you, for many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and saying, ‘The time has come!’ But don’t believe them. Luke 21

“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.
Matt 24

Does rapture theology make a mockery of martyrs.
James 1:12 Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.

Philippians 1:21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

Speaking words against the Scriptures? Is teaching that one does not have to "tribulate" somewhat anti-Scriptural?

Sound similar?
Problem of evil as asked by an atheist "How can there be evil when there is an All-Loving All-Powerful God?"
Rapture as described by a rapture adherent "How can God let the elected suffer in the tribulation?"

the Laodecian church in Revelation(maybe Today as well) misses your evidence completely and the error of pre-trib makes it worse for the Body.

You said: "No, first Thes. 4 is BEFORE tribulation. John saw the raptured church in heaven before He started the 70th week. So you missed it again."

Your statements are a opening chapter for 'Immaturity of Scripture 101' just as was laid out in Post #218 and here as well.

1 Thess 4 is AFTER and DURING Great Tribulation = Persecution and Death for bearing witness to CHRIST.

Evidence = 1 Thess 3:1-5 = comes BEFORE chapter 4

Therefore, when we could no longer endure it, we thought it good to be left in Athens alone, and sent Timothy, our brother and minister of God, and our fellow laborer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you and encourage you concerning your faith,
that no one should be shaken by these afflictions; for you yourselves know that we are appointed to this.

For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation,
just as it happened, and you know.
For this reason, when I could no longer endure it, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor might be in vain.

It happened to the Saints and Prophets of OLD, It happened to our LORD, It happened to the Saints of the NEW and it never stopped.

Wake Up Call - John 15:20 Matthew ch24
Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’
If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also.

Then they will deliver you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another, and many false prophets will arise and mislead many.

Question for the Reader: Why did DavidTree say AFTER and DURING instead of During and After?

1 Thess 4 is AFTER and DURING Great Tribulation = Persecution and Death for bearing witness to CHRIST.

Evidence = 1 Thess 3:1-5 = comes BEFORE chapter 4

Yeah I already understand there’s tribulation in the world for Christians Jesus told us ahead of time

“And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭14:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭4:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

yeah the escape plan is pretty basic but it doesn’t mean your gonna be magically removed from the world that Christians are told to go through and follow Jesus rather than sin that’s every Christians journey to stick with Jesus till you die so you can escape death and go home to life

This is the only escape we have

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Pretty basic stuff and the final generation whoever is left ive of the church the last day when Jesus returns will then be “ caught up with him “

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’m not sure the benefit of imagining a rapture from the world but I do know we have to accept the gospel and persevere in faith as we go through the world

honestly I’ve never understood the idea like a space ship is gonna zoom Christians up at some point ? Or what’s the idea of a rapture ? Wouldnt or couldn’t it only apply to the final generation of Christians ? Or have people been getting magically raptured all along ?

or is it just some super Christians ? Has it already happened ? When will it ? Like there isn’t tribulation on earth right now ? Christians suffer daily don’t they even are killed in many countries

how come to y aren’t being raptured from all Thier tribulation and suffering I wonder ? What do we expect the tribulation to be ?

Where you miss it: the church has always had "tribulation" but God is going to one day pour out HIS WRATH.
Luke 21 tells us of God's escape plan - how to avoid God's wrath. Paul shows us His rapture IS God's escape plan. God is not going to set any appointments for us with His wrath. No appointment means, DON'T SHOW UP.

It seems in these last days that many people wish to set their OWN appointments. If that is what you desire, I think God will honor your faith. However, God's escape plan is very real and scriptural. Have you ever prayed even ONCE to be found worthy to escape?

I used the word "tribulate" because it was easier to type than to say one will suffer through the days of the 70th week that so many people call "the trib." God is going to pour out His wrath on the earth and all on the earth will suffer His wrath. That is why God has a planned escape: to take HIS kids out before His wrath. If people are determined to stay behind I think God will honor their faith.

There is no false hope of rapture...