Misconceptions

They ceased for all the wrong reasons. Often where there has been a true revival, the gifts of the Holy Spirit have been restored. The real church was utterly suppressed by Catholicism for centuries. One notable restoration was during the period that John and Charles Wesley ministered. John Wesley stated, and I agree, that the spiritual condition of the church was the the problem. John Wesley was Anglican all his life, but was scathing about the pathetic state of the Church of England.

The Welsh revival of 1900's was similar. There was a revival in Australia in 1902 led by RA Torrey. In the 1970's the Charismatic movement restored the gifts to the church. Now the gifts of the Spirit are rarely manifested even in full on Pentecostal churches. The decline of the gifts is due to spiritual decay, not because we don't need them anymore. Speaking in tongues is the least of the gifts and overemphasis on tongues is unhelpful. Saying you must speak in tongues to prove that you are saved is heresy. But the gifts of the Spirit are necessary and will be until the end of the church age.

Why should the gifts be helpful? The Bible is not specific in many cases. I was with a small group of Christians who attended a wedding. We came from about 1,000 km away, from different directions. Two of the people came by motorbike. One was completely unable to move because of a terrible toothache. His brother said that we should pray for him. To myself, I said that God does not heal teeth. I'd never heard such a thing. The Lord said to me, "Yes I do!" I had a gift of faith for that moment. I prayed for the man and he was healed instantly. I've had nothing exactly like that since - 45 years ago.

I had some serious spiritual problems due to my lack of knowledge of God's ways. I met a man who had a number of spiritual gifts. He discerned the root cause of the problem. I may never have been set free otherwise.

Spiritual gifts do not replace study of God's word, prayer and fellowship. But they can sure shine a light on a specific problem, offer guidance in difficult situations, answer the cry of a seeking heart, encourage someone who is struggling or give direction to someone who lacks wisdom.

If you think that the Church is perfect and no longer needs spiritual gifts, I would have to disagree. I've been saved 50 years. The church is but a shadow of what it was when I was first saved.

It isn't about the church being perfect that led to the spiritual gifts completing their purpose. If you are meaning all believers being perfect.. yeah.. none perfect there.. not until all are one church in heaven.

If you are meaning the local church being perfect .. yeah .. no perfect local church.

But the bible is perfect, complete and lacking nothing for completeness.

We are talking about the three gifts that would cease according to prophecy . They ceased for all the right reasons. Since the Bible was now complete there was no need for those three gifts. And after the apostles passed on, there was no need for the gifts associated with the apostles. The Bible says that there are only twelve apostles of the Lamb. So the gift of apostles was limited. So were the signs, wonders, and miracles associated with the apostles.

Well I'm saying they professed faith in Christ.. very difficult to know exactly who actually genuine believed in those people.

But as to the outreach I was doing.. well guess I'd have to get you to contact my friends thru Facebook that were part of campus Crusade and part of my church in the past.... but I dont think we need go that far.

Only God would know that.

bad exegesis was Paul an Apostle? what number was he? When was he called by Jesus Who replaced Judas?

Paul says he was called from his mother's womb (Gal 1:15). It does not get any better than that. So how come you do not know this? And do you really think that Christians have no idea that the apostle who wrote over half the New Testament was not the 12th apostle? Amazing how people get their hackles up because they do not like the truth.

LOL, read 1 Corinthians chapter 15 Ok. Let me show you here in the word of God what Paul said who I think knew more than you and I ok? Paul is speaking here

"Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God."10 But by the grace of God I am what I am,


Now please you can continue to as you say it "hackles up " about not knowing the truth but here is Paul telling you who he is and what he knew as "the 12 "

Gal 1:15 start at verse 1 and read through 15 in the chapter

I’m a bit amused when people claim the gifts have ceased. I have no doubt the gifts have ceased for themselves but they continue among the saints to this day. I mean, sure, believe what you want. I’ll be over here with the saints and the gifts the Living God has given us.

Cessationism is a consequence of a weak and powerless church: having a form of godliness but lacking the power thereof. Until we are all formed into the fullness that is Christ, a perfect man, the gifts will accompany the saints.

No Paul was prophesying about what would happen after Revelation was completed. While the apostles were on earth, all of the gifts were operational. After they passed away, some of those gifts ceased. And that is exactly what Paul had said.

I’m a bit amused when people claim the gifts have ceased. I have no doubt the gifts have ceased for themselves but they continue among the saints to this day. I mean, sure, believe what you want. I’ll be over here with the saints and the gifts the Living God has given us.

Cessationism is a consequence of a weak and powerless church: having a form of godliness but lacking the power thereof. Until we are all formed into the fullness that is Christ, a perfect man, the gifts will accompany the saints.

I have seen several absolute miracles! Those who don't see don't believe!

Remember the cessation adheres to some gifts still remaining. It's mainly the three gifts of prophecy, tongues and gift of knowlege that all cessationists would say are passed.

Greetings. If you would, tell me your interpretation of the following verses below (highlighted), in respect to your teaching that the gifts have passed away. I'm curious how the Cessationist position interprets them: 8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

teleios: having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect
Original Word: τέλειος, α, ον

The text does NOT say "When He who is perfect is come" (which many automatically assume). Therefore "that which is perfect" can only apply to the written Word of God.

What Paul is saying here is that when we are all in the physical presence of Christ in Heaven, we will ourselves be perfected, therefore we will have a perfect knowledge of Christ and all things which were not fully understood while on earth.

On the canon being closed.. it was considered closed and complete before any council decided it so.

The veracity and reliability of the books was obviously known before the council said so.

So 1 Corinthians 12-14.. is for the Corinthians then.. with the gifts all going on.. but then there is the look to the future in the 'more excellent way'

As per opening post-- I believe the Holy Spirit is God..is the third person of the trinity.. rebukes, empowers, guides, admonishes, directs, can be hurt, seals, etc...

But used some spiritual gifts .. sign gifts in particular and then those gifts fulfilled their purpose and God finished using them.

Faith, hope and love are spiritual gifts.. they still remain. Ministry gifts-- I am not so sure about.. I believe they have passed too but have no issue with people who are into them because they are very similar to being God given talented at something.

So only some gifts have passed.. completed their purpose.. not all. The death of the apostles, destruction of the temple and closing of the canon bringing this about.