Misconceptions

[wattie]

This thread is regarding the doctrine of cessationism. It has been covered before, but I thought it was necessary to have a seperate thread for this.

There are common statements made regarding cessationism that I thought I'd like to address:

1- 'You are limiting/denying the power of the Holy Spirit.'

Generally, a cessationist still believes -- according to scripture---the Holy Spirit empowers, directs, guides, rebukes, encourages, is fully God, can be hurt and grieves, is personal, seals a believer, dwells in the midst of a local church in their various functions, and more.

They also generally believe-- according to scripture-- faith, hope and love are spiritual gifts that remain. Some also have partial cessationism with ministry gifts remaining, which altho I believe have also passed... I don't have much of an issue with if people are into these, since they are very similar to being God given talented at something.

The main thing though is the perfect thing, or that which is perfect.. causes the gifts to have been completed and finished. If this is the closed canon, with the death of the apostles and destruction of the temple.. then it isn't limiting or denying the Holy Spirit's power.

It is honouring that God has chosen to finish something He wanted for a time and completed it.


2- 'We have knowledge now, so the gifts can't have ceased.'

This one should be obvious, because the context of the spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12-14 is the supernatural gift of knowledge. This is not general knowledge.. it's supernaturally empowered, special, exceptional. So we still have general knowledge now of course.

3- 'The gifts are not being readily shown now because of a lack of faith'

The fact is most churches actually are not cessationists and believe in following all the gifts. Cessationists are not the majority. So not enough faith is not linked to the gifts not being shown.

The other part of this--in scripture-- is when God was using the gifts through people, it wasn't always about the level of their faith. It was God working, objectively, through people with these gifts. Many demonstrations of power and signs to show His work through His people to accomplish particular purposes. When they operated in the gifts-- they just DID IT! Because it was God doing it!

I think there are more things people bring up.. it would be good to know more.








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[Nehemiah6]

I think there are more things people bring up.. it would be good to know more.

Those not familiar with what it means to be a Cessationist assume that it means believing that none of the spiritual gifts are in effect. Actually it applies primarily to those three gifts which Paul said would cease -- prophecy, tongues, and supernatural knowledge. Secondarily to apostles and the sign gifts given to them. However, the majority of gifts listed are still operational.

 

[Runningman]

Those not familiar with what it means to be a Cessationist assume that it means believing that none of the spiritual gifts are in effect. Actually it applies primarily to those three gifts which Paul said would cease -- prophecy, tongues, and supernatural knowledge. Secondarily to apostles and the sign gifts given to them. However, the majority of gifts listed are still operational.

This doesn't say that prophecy, tongues, and supernatural knowledge have ceased. It's just comparing unfailing nature of love to those three things.

1 Corinthians 13:8
8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

I can understand the misconception by those without the gift of prophecy, but Paul is correct. It is often not fully clear what the divine revelation is. What Paul said below is an accurate description of what it's like to prophesy:

1 Corinthians 13:9
9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

1 Corinthians 13:12
12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

 

[Omegatime]

This thread is regarding the doctrine of cessationism. It has been covered before, but I thought it was necessary to have a seperate thread for this.

There are common statements made regarding cessationism that I thought I'd like to address:

1- 'You are limiting/denying the power of the Holy Spirit.'

Generally, a cessationist still believes -- according to scripture---the Holy Spirit empowers, directs, guides, rebukes, encourages, is fully God, can be hurt and grieves, is personal, seals a believer, dwells in the midst of a local church in their various functions, and more.

They also generally believe-- according to scripture-- faith, hope and love are spiritual gifts that remain. Some also have partial cessationism with ministry gifts remaining, which altho I believe have also passed... I don't have much of an issue with if people are into these, since they are very similar to being God given talented at something.

The main thing though is the perfect thing, or that which is perfect.. causes the gifts to have been completed and finished. If this is the closed canon, with the death of the apostles and destruction of the temple.. then it isn't limiting or denying the Holy Spirit's power.

It is honouring that God has chosen to finish something He wanted for a time and completed it.


2- 'We have knowledge now, so the gifts can't have ceased.'

This one should be obvious, because the context of the spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12-14 is the supernatural gift of knowledge. This is not general knowledge.. it's supernaturally empowered, special, exceptional. So we still have general knowledge now of course.

3- 'The gifts are not being readily shown now because of a lack of faith'

The fact is most churches actually are not cessationists and believe in following all the gifts. Cessationists are not the majority. So not enough faith is not linked to the gifts not being shown.

The other part of this--in scripture-- is when God was using the gifts through people, it wasn't always about the level of their faith. It was God working, objectively, through people with these gifts. Many demonstrations of power and signs to show His work through His people to accomplish particular purposes. When they operated in the gifts-- they just DID IT! Because it was God doing it!

I think there are more things people bring up.. it would be good to know more.








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My personal opinion why the gifts are not seen today is not because of a lack of faith by believers, but sin and the worship of idols. Take the santa claus factor, we look at that as being harmless but to the Lord? We tell our children he knows whether you are naughty or nice making him a god. We lie to our children. And look at other holidays we consider harmless such as Halloween and the bunny. if Israel did these things I wonder if they would still exist?

 

[Jocund]

Would an example of this be Lutheranism? If I recall correctly the interpretation is that gifts of revelations, speaking in tongues, and other divinations are no longer considered to occur for the purpose of adding to the Gospels because the testimony is considered complete. This contrasts against Roman Catholicism and Greek Catholicism which believe that modern (inspired) testimony such as from the Pope or Patriarchs can have equal authority to scripture as these dictations are considered to be from supernatural authority (a gift).

 

[Nehemiah6]

This doesn't say that prophecy, tongues, and supernatural knowledge have ceased.

No. It says very emphatically that they would cease. And they did cease. Check out Church history.

 

[wattie]

Would an example of this be Lutheranism? If I recall correctly the interpretation is that gifts of revelations, speaking in tongues, and other divinations are no longer considered to occur for the purpose of adding to the Gospels because the testimony is considered complete. This contrasts against Roman Catholicism and Greek Catholicism which believe that modern (inspired) testimony such as from the Pope or Patriarchs can have equal authority to scripture as these dictations are considered to be from supernatural authority (a gift).

From what I've read this is a root of getting into the sign gifts.. is people putting their hands up to say they can do prophecy, wonders etc.. regardless of scriptural authority.

 

[p_rehbein]

It is honouring that God has chosen to finish something He wanted for a time and completed it.

Wattie....

Are you saying that you believe the Gifts of the Spirit are no longer given by the Holy Spirit to believers today? If so, then oh my goodness.......

Do you NOT believe the Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Holy Trinity?

If you believe Spiritual Gifts have ceased and the Holy Spirit is NOT the Third Person of the Trinity (God the Holy Spirit), then I truly feel sorry for you. Reminds me of what Paul said to the Galatians.....

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

 

[pottersclay]

The gifts have not ceased...the urge to serve has.

 

[wattie]

Wattie....

Are you saying that you believe the Gifts of the Spirit are no longer given by the Holy Spirit to believers today? If so, then oh my goodness.......

Do you NOT believe the Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Holy Trinity?

If you believe Spiritual Gifts have ceased and the Holy Spirit is NOT the Third Person of the Trinity (God the Holy Spirit), then I truly feel sorry for you. Reminds me of what Paul said to the Galatians.....

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

As per opening post-- I believe the Holy Spirit is God..is the third person of the trinity.. rebukes, empowers, guides, admonishes, directs, can be hurt, seals, etc...

But used some spiritual gifts .. sign gifts in particular and then those gifts fulfilled their purpose and God finished using them.

Faith, hope and love are spiritual gifts.. they still remain. Ministry gifts-- I am not so sure about.. I believe they have passed too but have no issue with people who are into them because they are very similar to being God given talented at something.

So only some gifts have passed.. completed their purpose.. not all. The death of the apostles, destruction of the temple and closing of the canon bringing this about.

 

[CS1]

Those not familiar with what it means to be a Cessationist assume that it means believing that none of the spiritual gifts are in effect. Actually it applies primarily to those three gifts which Paul said would cease -- prophecy, tongues, and supernatural knowledge. Secondarily to apostles and the sign gifts given to them. However, the majority of gifts listed are still operational.

Paul never said they would cease that is not true. Paul said in context to describing the gifts used not in love.


1cor 13:8-10

8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

Those would have you believe this is the canon. LOL IF you rip out verse 1-7 you might have something there.

Here is what the later part of 13 says which the context does not end with this chapter. the context starts in chapters 12 through 14


11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Even with the completion of the bible, YOU do not know all. You still only know in part and Paul goes on to say

1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

 

[wattie]

Paul never said they would cease that is not true. Paul said in context to describing the gifts used not in love.


1cor 13:8-10

8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

Those would have you believe this is the canon. LOL IF you rip out verse 1-7 you might have something there.

Here is what the later part of 13 says which the context does not end with this chapter. the context starts in chapters 12 through 14


11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Even with the completion of the bible, YOU do not know all. You still only know in part and Paul goes on to say

1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

Yes, Paul was writing to the Corinthians to pursue love and desire spiritual gifts.

It has been around 2000 years since that time. The 'more excellent way' described by Paul has the temporary nature of the sign gifts and supremacy of love, with abiding in spiritual gifts of faith, hope and love.

Part of the chapters is in the future of the Corinthians.. the other is what they abide in then and there.

My question.. now suppose 'the perfect thing' or 'that which is perfect'is the second coming of Christ..

How is that a completion of the sign gifts? Because that is what the perfect does. Whatever is in part in the chapter.. is the same as what becomes perfect.

And the other question is, why would not Paul call it the second coming? Paul knew full well the second coming.. it was no mystery.

The last question is.. where is the concrete evidence of the sign gifts in action?

God would use them clearly and obviously.. but this isn't what is seen.

 

[ResidentAlien]

It was God's design that we should have general knowledge—the Bible. It was never part of the plan for signs and wonders to go on forever.

We have God's word by design. If we didn't have it as the only rule for faith and practice we'd have anarchy; which is essentially the state of affairs now. Apostles and prophets are a dime a dozen each making it up as they go along. God's word has been tossed out in favor of fables.

Will signs and wonders reappear? I believe so. But what passes for signs and wonders now is laughable.

 

[CS1]

Yes, Paul was writing to the Corinthians to pursue love and desire spiritual gifts.

It has been around 2000 years since that time. The 'more excellent way' described by Paul has the temporary nature of the sign gifts and supremacy of love, with abiding in spiritual gifts of faith, hope and love.

Part of the chapters is in the future of the Corinthians.. the other is what they abide in then and there.

My question.. now suppose 'the perfect thing' or 'that which is perfect'is the second coming of Christ..

How is that a completion of the sign gifts? Because that is what the perfect does. Whatever is in part in the chapter.. is the same as what becomes perfect.

And the other question is, why would not Paul call it the second coming? Paul knew full well the second coming.. it was no mystery.

The last question is.. where is the concrete evidence of the sign gifts in action?

God would use them clearly and obviously.. but this isn't what is seen.

it is amazing God even saves today by how many talks about what God did 200 years ago. as He did 2000 God is the same yesterday today and forever.

1Corinthains chapter 13 8-10 is not the full context of Spiritual gifts. they have not ceased as love as not.

As you the question you asked:

"My question.. now suppose 'the perfect thing' or 'that which is perfect'is the second coming of Christ..

How is that a completion of the sign gifts? "

the gifts of the Holy Spirit will not be needed when one is dead or after Christ has come and we are glorified.


"And the other question is, why would not Paul call it the second coming? Paul knew full well the second coming.. it was no mystery."

Your second question is not correct Paul knew full well the second coming but he died before it happened and he had the gifts of the Holy Spirit recorded in 1cor chapter 12 through 14. Are you suggesting Paul would have today received a greater revelation from the KJV or NIV as Paul did not have a New Testament Canon? FYI, Jesus Christ, Himself gave Paul the revelations he received before those said it was from God. Canonization and the completion of the bible left on a table do nothing until those who speak it and live it in and by faith with the Help of the Holy Spirit as Jesus said to do, that saved people.


The Gospel message must be preached and lived before men not just in the completion of the bible.


"The last question is.. where is the concrete evidence of the sign gifts in action?"

Yes, there is. However, Jesus said in Matthew 16:4

"A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.” And He left them and departed."


many quote this verse to try and label those who say the gifts are for today, wrong! Those who say the gifts are for today are not seeking after a sign. It is those who say prove it and we will believe Jesus was talking about


Jesus also said Mark 16:17

And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;"

The proof is very much there. God is saving, healing, and delivering every day. If you are not seeing that, doesn't mean we need you to see it for the gifts to be happening for them to be authenticated.

 

[Jocund]

There seem to be three approaches to the question:

1) Yes, the gifts have ceased as the message it complete
2) No, gifts are ongoing and add to the message
3) Mixed: personal gifts are given that have no direct bearing on group understanding.

An example of the third interpretation would be seeing the future in a dream, but the event seen has no apparent meaning or value in itself (e.g. precogntition of a trivial but specific scene of someone walk down a street on a sunny day). Despite not necessarily having any value that it adds to the group's understanding, the gift in itself can stand as a private affirmation of the ability for these gifts to exist and through extension what may be shown through these gifts. The question about cessation would be answered "kind of yes, kind of no"

Great topic, I look forward to reading the posts that come out of this.

 

[CS1]

There seem to be three approaches to the question:

1) Yes, the gifts have ceased as the message it complete
2) No, gifts are ongoing and add to the message
3) Mixed: personal gifts are given that have no direct bearing on group understanding.

An example of the third interpretation would be seeing the future in a dream, but the event seen has no apparent meaning or value in itself (e.g. precogntition of a trivial but specific scene of someone walk down a street on a sunny day). Despite not necessarily having any value that it adds to the group's understanding, the gift in itself can stand as a private affirmation of the ability for these gifts to exist and through extension what may be shown through these gifts. The question about cessation would be answered "kind of yes, kind of no"

Great topic, I look forward to reading the posts that come out of this.

May I say number 3 is not correct? the Gifts of the Holy Spirt are not "personal gifts" they are HIS the Holy Spirt's. HE uses the willing person who yields to HIS calling and entrusts us with them.

 

[Runningman]

It was God's design that we should have general knowledge—the Bible. It was never part of the plan for signs and wonders to go on forever.

We have God's word by design. If we didn't have it as the only rule for faith and practice we'd have anarchy; which is essentially the state of affairs now. Apostles and prophets are a dime a dozen each making it up as they go along. God's word has been tossed out in favor of fables.

Will signs and wonders reappear? I believe so. But what passes for signs and wonders now is laughable.

It's ironic that you call wonders laughable when without signs, miracles, and wonders the Bible is just an interesting paper book.

On the contrary, the Bible jumps directly out of the paper and into the real world where its words are confirmed. Armchair Christianity has it's place and I love the rank and file believers in Christ just fine.

However, Christianity is more than a theory on some pages. It's objective reality where signs, wonders, and miracles are real and happen regularly. Christianity is spiritual warfare so intense that it would make the inexperienced cower in fear and possibly abandon the difficult path where Satan himself will do everything he can to get their worship and cause them to abandon their faith.

I hope you get to experience this one day. As of right now I fear many people are still sleeping and probably don't want to wake up.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Paul never said they would cease that is not true

Absolutely true. And the KJV has "shall" (not "will") to make that abundantly clear. The question people should ask themselves is "Why did Paul select only three gifts out of about 20 and tell us that they would vanish?" It is because they all relate to divine revelations, and once the Bible was completed there would be no more revelations. That is what the apostle John told us in Revelation.

 

[JaumeJ]

We will no longer require healers come the Kigdom. God is going to give all a pure tongue therefore then the necessity for tonges as a gift will cease. Etc.

 

[Runningman]

No. It says very emphatically that they would cease. And they did cease. Check out Church history.

I think you're believing that because it says prophecies will fail, or tongues shall cease, or knowledge will vanish away, you're making the unwarranted assumption that Paul was saying they stopped right then and there as he was penning the letter to the Corinthian church. Obviously, that wasn't the case.

Spiritual gifts are to be desired. You need to start praying for God to bless you with gifts because they haven't stopped. Saying spiritual gifts has stopped seems like a doctrine of demons designed to make impotent the faith of many.

The first verse of 1 Corinthians 14 says to desire spiritual gifts. No where is there any instruction on to stop desiring the spiritual gifts.

1 Corinthians 14:1
1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.