What are you thoughts on Annihilation?
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Destruction Into NOTHINGNESS = annihilation?
Since when? Matter is CHANGED = cremation LEAVES ASHES!
But Then, I am Really Dumb at physics
Since when? Matter is CHANGED = cremation LEAVES ASHES!
But Then, I am Really Dumb at physics
In your estimation, do ashes have consciousness?
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The Bible is history. A book full of the history of God's dealings with man and man's response to God: rebellion, rejection, preferring sin. God's revealed written Word teaches an end to the unsaved from Genesis onward. The wages of sin is death is repeated in a multiplicity of ways. But the dead are alive, some say. Oy. Let's use some discretion and common sense. We are all born spiritually dead to God, and put on immortality by grace alone through faith alone in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ alone, Who gave His life as a ransom for many. The spiritually dead pass into a second death which is nowhere described as the death we are born into nor the first death, that of the body awaiting resurrection and judgment at the end of this age. We are told the dead (that is, those in the grave following the first death of the body) know nothing, while many insist they are already suffering in hellfire torments which will be everlastingly prolonged following their second death, when hell is thrown into the Lake of Fire (if they even make that distinction) and death the last enemy destroyed.
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I'm late...
This is guilty by association fallacy mixed with a red herring fallacy as there are many cults that use the name "Jesus" for example. That doesn't mean that everyone who uses that name is a cult member. So likewise we can't make such an association with this doctrine (as it's not the principal doctrine that establishes those cults).
What matters is what scripture says or doesn't say about the two doctrines (annihilation vs eternal burning alive).
...and like Laura has pointed out, it's actually Eternal Torment that's the newer doctrine. The Jewish leaders of the early church ("The Way") didn't believe in the immortal soul for there to be eternal torment. None of the "oracles" given to them were counted as false. Their issue was they failed to see the fulfillment of many rituals in Christ.
This is guilty by association fallacy mixed with a red herring fallacy as there are many cults that use the name "Jesus" for example. That doesn't mean that everyone who uses that name is a cult member. So likewise we can't make such an association with this doctrine (as it's not the principal doctrine that establishes those cults).
What matters is what scripture says or doesn't say about the two doctrines (annihilation vs eternal burning alive).
...and like Laura has pointed out, it's actually Eternal Torment that's the newer doctrine. The Jewish leaders of the early church ("The Way") didn't believe in the immortal soul for there to be eternal torment. None of the "oracles" given to them were counted as false. Their issue was they failed to see the fulfillment of many rituals in Christ.
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Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live,
Everyone has a free choice, I say. Anyone who doesn't choose life (Christ) doesn't get it.
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The "H3615" word (mentioned on the previous page, Post #1448) is used in the following verse:
Isaiah 29:20 -
King James Bible
For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed [H3615], and all that watch for iniquity are cut off:
Berean Study Bible
For the ruthless will vanish, the mockers will disappear [H3615], and all who look for evil will be cut down—
note: this is not referring to the "GWTj" point... and that's what several of us are endeavoring to point out.
When this Isaiah 29:20 thing occurs, it's talking about from the point when those persons physically exist on the earth.
I covered a related point in Post #693 where it uses a different word but is also speaking to the same issue [/point being made]:
https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4685199
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Right!
Isaiah 29:20 -
King James Bible
For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed [H3615], and all that watch for iniquity are cut off:
Berean Study Bible
For the ruthless will vanish, the mockers will disappear [H3615], and all who look for evil will be cut down—
note: this is not referring to the "GWTj" point... and that's what several of us are endeavoring to point out.
When this Isaiah 29:20 thing occurs, it's talking about from the point when those persons physically exist on the earth.
I covered a related point in Post #693 where it uses a different word but is also speaking to the same issue [/point being made]:
https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4685199
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Right!
Are you intending to imply something here? And honestly, do you get the sense that I or others with whom you disagree on this issue do not hold God's revealed written Word in reverence? One commented that we are minions of the devil, and others too have called the state of our salvation into question. One subsequently blatantly lied about doing such a thing.
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I think this is at the heart of it. We need to address and accept what the punishment for evil is.
Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Death is how all sin is paid for...
If one doesn't accept the Messiah's payment, they pay for their sins themselves...
The payment is death, not suffering alive for eternnity.
Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Death is how all sin is paid for...
If one doesn't accept the Messiah's payment, they pay for their sins themselves...
The payment is death, not suffering alive for eternnity.
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What about those who worship the beast and receive the mark of Satan and serve him ?
“And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation;
and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:
and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”
Revelation 14:9-11 KJV
“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”
Hebrews 9:27 KJV
So all the dead who died once are raised to life by the spirit to face eternal judgement
“And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
Revelation 20:12, 14-15
it seems the second death would be that place of torment
“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations:
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
….Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:
but the righteous into life eternal.”
Matthew 25:31-32, 34, 41, 46 KJV
I don’t think the second death is actually death either I think Satan has his CHildren and servants in the earth they will spend the afterlife with him in torment
Gods will spend eternity with him. Regardless it’s just my own understanding of what scriptures say we all die once everyone agrees there . But what happens after is just our opinions of what it says
“And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation;
and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:
and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”
Revelation 14:9-11 KJV
“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”
Hebrews 9:27 KJV
So all the dead who died once are raised to life by the spirit to face eternal judgement
“And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
Revelation 20:12, 14-15
it seems the second death would be that place of torment
“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations:
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
….Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:
but the righteous into life eternal.”
Matthew 25:31-32, 34, 41, 46 KJV
I don’t think the second death is actually death either I think Satan has his CHildren and servants in the earth they will spend the afterlife with him in torment
Gods will spend eternity with him. Regardless it’s just my own understanding of what scriptures say we all die once everyone agrees there . But what happens after is just our opinions of what it says
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[EDIT to ADD to my previous post] Same general point made in my Post #378 -
https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4679187
[note: no one is suggesting these ppl don't go on to the "GWTj" / lake of fire, which hasn't occurred yet]
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Oh yeah... and Post #374 too (same point being conveyed) -
https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4679175
https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4679187
[note: no one is suggesting these ppl don't go on to the "GWTj" / lake of fire, which hasn't occurred yet]
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Oh yeah... and Post #374 too (same point being conveyed) -
https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4679175
The "H3615" word (mentioned on the previous page, Post #1448) is used in the following verse:
Isaiah 29:20 -
King James Bible
For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed [H3615], and all that watch for iniquity are cut off:
Berean Study Bible
For the ruthless will vanish, the mockers will disappear [H3615], and all who look for evil will be cut down—
note: this is not referring to the "GWTj" point... and that's what several of us are endeavoring to point out.
When this Isaiah 29:20 thing occurs, it's talking about from the point when those persons physically exist on the earth.
I covered a related point in Post #693 where it uses a different word but is also speaking to the same issue [/point being made]:
https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4685199
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Right!
Isaiah 29:20 -
King James Bible
For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed [H3615], and all that watch for iniquity are cut off:
Berean Study Bible
For the ruthless will vanish, the mockers will disappear [H3615], and all who look for evil will be cut down—
note: this is not referring to the "GWTj" point... and that's what several of us are endeavoring to point out.
When this Isaiah 29:20 thing occurs, it's talking about from the point when those persons physically exist on the earth.
I covered a related point in Post #693 where it uses a different word but is also speaking to the same issue [/point being made]:
https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4685199
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Right!
This is absolute nonsense! You have made this notion up out of your own head--it is pointless to endeavor to discuss this with any of you ECT'ers in a reasonable way--OF COURSE this entire forum is dedicated to whether an unbelievers will be DESTROYED at the "GREAT WHITE THROWN JUDGMENT' or if they are to suffer ETERNAL CONSCIOUS TORMENT. We on the Conditional Immortality/Annhilationist side have given NO verses regarding physical death--that is a comma in the light of eternity in my estimation.
Again to quote the Mad Hatter, "“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?”
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DW, you said: don’t think the second death is actually death either I think Satan has his Children and servants in the earth they will spend the afterlife with him in torment
It's not about what YOU think--it's about what the scripture actually says-- and it says 4 Times in Revelation the lake of fire IS the Second Death. And so do hundreds of other literal verses. If you don't believe it means what it says, then you won't be able to support any other words in Scripture if you don't think they mean what they mean!
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Destruction Into NOTHINGNESS = annihilation?
Since when? Matter is CHANGED = cremation LEAVES ASHES!
But Then, I am Really Dumb at physics
Since when? Matter is CHANGED = cremation LEAVES ASHES!
But Then, I am Really Dumb at physics
this world shall pass away with none of it remaining? With a new heaven and earth made?
The implications of the things people say trying to disprove what the Bible plainly states...
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Pilgirm you said:
But what happens after is just our opinions of what it says
I agree with that statement for those on the side of Eternal Conscious Torment. As I said several times before and will say again--the verses used as evidence for Conditional Immortality/Annihilation outnumber ECT'er verses 100 to 1!
No one need have an opinion when God has repeated over and over and over again what the end of the wicked/ unbeliever is
DEATH: To cease to exist. Destruction.
and again if you believe ECT, then that mean you don't actually believe Christ paid the penalty by His death on the cross.
But what happens after is just our opinions of what it says
I agree with that statement for those on the side of Eternal Conscious Torment. As I said several times before and will say again--the verses used as evidence for Conditional Immortality/Annihilation outnumber ECT'er verses 100 to 1!
No one need have an opinion when God has repeated over and over and over again what the end of the wicked/ unbeliever is
DEATH: To cease to exist. Destruction.
and again if you believe ECT, then that mean you don't actually believe Christ paid the penalty by His death on the cross.
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