What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

[cv5]

The righteous judgment of God brings DESTRUCTION aka "eternal ruin, loss of well being".
Looks like have been barking up the wrong tree my friend. I suggest a course correction. You and the rest of the annihilationists.

2 Thes 1:6-10
After all, it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are oppressed and to us as well. This will take place when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in blazing fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction (G3639), separated from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His might, on the day He comes to be glorified in His saints and regarded with wonder by all who have believed, including you who have believed our testimony.

Strongs G3639 https://biblehub.com/greek/3639.htm
3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."

Rom 9:22
What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction (G684)?

Strongs G684 https://biblehub.com/greek/684.htm
Cognate: 684 apṓleia (from 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") – destruction, causing someone (something) to be completely severed – cut off (entirely) from what could or should have been. (Note the force of the prefix, apo.) See 622 (apollymi).

684 /apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being (Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165; cf. Jn 11:50; Ac 5:37; 1 Cor 10:9-10; Jude 11).

 

[Magenta]

Psalms 37:20
“But the wicked will perish: Though the Lord’s enemies are like the
flowers of the field, they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.”

Not a flame that does not consume as some say. Why do they say this? God
had a bush burn for Moses that did not consume away, even though our God
is a consuming fire. Was God showing Moses his wrath? No. So those people
take one verse where something was not consumed and try to make it a principle
for eternal hellfire when there are many verses that say not only otherwise, but
specifically otherwise in relation to the destruction and end of the wicked.

Malachi 4:1
“For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea,
and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn
them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.”

Nothing is left.

Isaiah 1:28
But rebels and sinners will together be shattered, and those who forsake the LORD will perish.

The same word for perish in another place means destroy in an instant.
In most instances it simply means finished. Strong's 3615. However, perish
is also used in other verses using Strong's 622, which means destroy utterly,
fully. Verses such as the best known and most loved verse of all, John 3:16.

Job 31:3 a
Is not destruction to the wicked?

Psalm 1:6
For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

The above word is Strongs #6, meaning destroy, perish.

Psalm 5:6
Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Isaiah 9:18
For wickedness burns like a fire that consumes the thorns and briers
and kindles the forest thickets which roll upward in billows of smoke.

Isaiah 29:6
Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake,
and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.

Isaiah 30:27-33
Behold, the name of the LORD cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden
thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire:

Man must put on immortality; he is is not born with it. It is given only to those who believe on the Lord.

For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

Romans 2:7
To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life.

2 Corinthians 5:4
So while we are in this tent, we groan under our burdens, because we do not wish
to be unclothed but clothed, so that our mortality may be swallowed up by life.

God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked while some believe He will glory in tormenting them.

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death
of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn from your evil ways!"

2 Peter 3:9
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-
suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

God prevented Adam and Eve from eating of the Tree of Life and living ever after in their state of
sin, while some believe God will keep sinners in a state of sin forever so they can be tormented.

Likewise, saying death is nothing to fear, the non-believer gets what they want? Also disproved
by Scripture, in Hebrews 2:15 where fear of death is given as the reason for man's slavery to sin.

 

[Laura798]

Psalms 37:20
“But the wicked will perish: Though the Lord’s enemies are like the
flowers of the field, they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.”

Not a flame that does not consume as some say. Why do they say this? God
had a bush burn for Moses that did not consume away, even though our God
is a consuming fire. Was God showing Moses his wrath? No. So those people
take one verse where something was not consumed and try to make it a principle
for eternal hellfire when there are many verses that say not only otherwise, but
specifically otherwise in relation to the destruction and end of the wicked.

Malachi 4:1
“For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea,
and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn
them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.”

Nothing is left.

Isaiah 1:28
But rebels and sinners will together be shattered, and those who forsake the LORD will perish.

The same word for perish in another place means destroy in an instant.
In most instances it simply means finished. Strong's 3615. However, perish
is also used in other verses using Strong's 622, which means destroy utterly,
fully. Verses such as the best known and most loved verse of all, John 3:16.

Job 31:3 a
Is not destruction to the wicked?

Psalm 1:6
For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

The above word is Strongs #6, meaning destroy, perish.

Psalm 5:6
Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Isaiah 9:18
For wickedness burns like a fire that consumes the thorns and briers
and kindles the forest thickets which roll upward in billows of smoke.

Isaiah 29:6
Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake,
and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.

Isaiah 30:27-33
Behold, the name of the LORD cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden
thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire:

Man must put on immortality; he is is not born with it. It is given only to those who believe on the Lord.

For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

Romans 2:7
To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life.

2 Corinthians 5:4
So while we are in this tent, we groan under our burdens, because we do not wish
to be unclothed but clothed, so that our mortality may be swallowed up by life.

God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked while some believe He will glory in tormenting them.

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death
of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn from your evil ways!"

2 Peter 3:9
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-
suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

God prevented Adam and Eve from eating of the Tree of Life and living ever after in their state of
sin, while some believe God will keep sinners in a state of sin forever so they can be tormented.

Likewise, saying death is nothing to fear, the non-believer gets what they want? Also disproved
by Scripture, in Hebrews 2:15 where fear of death is given as the reason for man's slavery to sin.

Dear Magenta,

God is saying "Well done, thy good and faithful servant!"--

"“When you tell them all this, they will not listen to you; when you call to them, they will not answer."--Jeremiah 7:27

I am listening! Thank you for all these wonderful verses--even if some may not hear there are others who will.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Psalms 37:20
“But the wicked will perish: Though the Lord’s enemies are like the
flowers of the field, they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.”

Hmmm...

Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be
as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Physical death, yes? NOT spiritual
+
The corrupted versions of God's Preserved Word Of Truth, ALWAYS Cause Confusion,
Correct?

 

[Magenta]

Hmmm...

Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be
as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Physical death, yes? NOT spiritual
+
The corrupted versions of God's Preserved Word Of Truth, ALWAYS Cause Confusion,
Correct?

They are already spiritually dead. They were born spiritually dead... And they are referred to as dead.

 

[Laura798]

Hmmm...

Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be
as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Physical death, yes? NOT spiritual
+
The corrupted versions of God's Preserved Word Of Truth, ALWAYS Cause Confusion,
Correct?

Grace, I'm not sure what you mean here. When you say 'Physical death Yes? Not spiritual--can you please share a verse that support this?

The bible is clear that both believers and unbelievers will be resurrected bodily--the spirit is not separated from man--man's spirit cannot exist without a body--we believers will receive an eternal celestial body, unbelievers will of course be destroyed both "body and soul"--their ENTIRE BEING is DESTROYED--your idea of a disembodied eternal spirit, comes from the pagan and Roman Catholic belief in an immortal soul however the bible is clear there is only one who is Immortal and that is God. He will give ONLY the believers the gift of Eternal Life--and it is called a GIFT--burning eternally is certainly no gift. The unbeliever will be destroyed since no one can stand before God and live, except those who are covered in Christ's righteousness. It is BLASPHEMY to say mankind has an immortal soul--and THAT is what you must believe in ETC.

 

[Magenta]

@GRACE_ambassador where do you get the idea that the dead to God are spiritually alive?

 

[Magenta]

Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be
as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

(twice in verse) consume; consume away: Strongs 3615 kalah ( כָּלָה )
to be complete, at an end, finished, accomplished, or spent

How does one interpret this to mean anything other than what it says?

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
accomplish, cease, consume away, determine, destroy utterly

A primitive root; to end, whether intransitive (to cease, be finished,
perish) or transitived (to complete, prepare, consume) -- accomplish,
cease, consume (away), determine, destroy (utterly), be (when... Were)
done, (be an) end (of), expire, (cause to) fail, faint, finish, fulfil, X fully,
X have, leave (off), long, bring to pass, wholly reap, make clean riddance,
spend, quite take away, waste.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Verses about death of the physical body don't support the notion that spirits will be made extinct.

 

[Magenta]

Dear Magenta,

God is saying "Well done, thy good and faithful servant!"--

"“When you tell them all this, they will not listen to you; when you call to them, they will not answer."--Jeremiah 7:27

I am listening! Thank you for all these wonderful verses--even if some may not hear there are others who will.

Thank you, Laura... really it puzzles me how some say death is not punishment, or that the soul of man is immortal, for it comes across as such a vacuous clutching at straws to make such claims, especially since they fly in the face of what Scripture explicitly states to the contrary. Their doctrine was not popularized until centuries after the foundation of Christ's church body.

The testimony of Arnobius (died c. 330 A.D), demonstrates how belief in the Biblical doctrine of the conditional immortality of the soul became corrupted with Greek ideas associated with punishment of the immortal soul in the eternal fires of Hades. Arnobius believed in annihilationalism; which it to say that the penalty of the wicked is a form of `everlasting destruction', in the sense that the destruction of the impenitent sinner has an everlasting result, which is eternal death, or annihlation. However, he also imbibed elements of pagan philosophy, in the idea that at death the soul is punished in Hades for an indefinite period of time, at which it is tormented in the flames of hell according to the punishment which is due to it. His account of the punishment which is metred out to the wicked gives us one of the first extant records which depicts the wicked as suffering in hell for inderterminate periods according to the gravity of their sin, which thus depicts God as delighting in the torment of the wicked, so that satisfaction might be made to God as an atonement for their sin.

Arnobius' account formed the basis of later `orthodox' Protestant theology which portrays the souls of the lost as suffering in torment in hell-fire for eternity - and which later also coalesced in the Catholic Church under Pope Gregory I (c. 540 A.D - 604 A.D); who is also called `the Great'. He was the first Pope who came from a monastic background, wrote voluminously, and following in the footsteps of Augustine who had previously written copious amounts of material on this subject one hundred years before him, gave the doctrine of the natural immortality of the soul and the eternal punishing of the wicked in the eternal fires of hell the official sanction of the Church. He was canonized as a Saint, is regarded as a Doctor of the Church and is often credited with founding the medieval papacy.

By the early sixteenth century, this belief had become so entrenched within the Catholic Church, that in the convening of the 5th Lateran Council in 1513, Pope Leo X condemned the doctrine of the conditional mortality of the soul as abject heresy. By contrast, the early Church Fathers were aware of the Platonizing influences which were already threatening the infant Church when the disciples of Christ were still alive, and strenuously resisted this, for as this exhortation from Ignatius Theophorus (c. 30 - c. 107 A.D.) demonstrates, they believed that when we die we `sleep together' in the dust of the earth, and then `awake together as the stewards, and associates, and servants of God' when Christ returns:

`Labour together with one another; strive in company together; run together; suffer together; sleep together [in death]; and awake together [in the resurrection], as the stewards, and associates, and servants of God.' (`Epistle to Polycarp', Ignatius, A.N.F, ch. 6)

The Syriac translation of `awake together' has been translated as `rise together', which indicates that it is indeed death which Ignatius was speaking of when he used the word `sleep'. Ignatius suffered martyrdom during the reign of the Roman Emerperor Trajan, (98 -117 A.D.) and wrote this epistle to Polycarp (69 - 155 A.D), who suffered martyrdom in 155 A.D for his faith. Both men are reputed to have sat at the feet of John, the `beloved disciple of Christ'. John also testified to this same belief, for he tells us in his gospel that when Christ described Lazurus as `sleeping' in the grave, His disciples believed that He was speaking of natural sleep: `Our friend Lazarus sleeps; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Nevertheless Jesus spoke of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, "Lazarus is dead".'(John 11: 13 - 14)

Obviously, John `the beloved disciple of Christ' was instructed by Jesus Himself of this doctrine. The apostle Paul was a contemporary of John, and was in agreement with John on this doctrine. Ignatius and Polycarp were students of John and received this doctrine from him, for the Ignatian epistle to Polycarp reveals that not only were the two men close friends, but Polycarp received instruction from Ignatius, and the two men were in agreement on this doctrine. Therefore we have an unbroken testimony of witnesses from Jesus Himself, to John, the apostle Paul and the early Church Fathers Ignatius and Polycarp, who all taught that we `sleep' in the grave until the Resurrection, at which time our corruptible bodies are rendered incorruptible, and we `put on' immortality(1 Cor. 15: 51 - 58). source

 

[Laura798]

Verses about death of the physical body don't support the notion that spirits will be made extinct.

Lucy, please site literal verses ( PLURAL--verse S)--- to support your opinions--without scriptural support that is all they are --opinions.

If we were to put these posts side by side, Annihilation on one side and Eternal Conscious Torment on the other, literal verses

that prove DESTRUCTION is the end of man and not TORMENT--they would be something like 100 to 1.

Again, it flies in the face of TRUTH--only God is immortal--and only believers receive the gift of immortality--NOT unbelievers.

 

[Magenta]

Verses about death of the physical body don't support the notion that spirits will be made extinct.

Who said spirits are made extinct? If the spirit returns to God Who gave it, there is no soul and nothing to animate the body in the grave, until resurrected wholly at the time of judgment, at which time they are still spiritually dead to God and still called the dead, after which they pass into the second death. Do not confuse the multiple meanings of death to conflate them. We are all born dead to God, yet we all are said to be alive. All men die once, yet Jesus said we (believers) would never die. Discernment is required to rightly divide, but too many seem to get stuck at one or two levels and refuse to see and/or are incapable of seeing beyond that, insisting then the second death is like the (first death) death of the body which descends into torments in hell (many do not even distinguish between hell and the LoF), supported by nothing more than a parable designed to convey the spiritual truth of choosing rightly whom to serve in this life, for the consequence is eternal. They support this (first death) hellfire doctrine with one parable only while Scripture makes clear: "THE DEAD KNOW NOTHING." The second death is the dissolution of both body and soul, from which there is no return. Perhaps you would rather have Jesus making idle threats? Why would Jesus tell us to fear Him Who can destroy both body and soul in hell if there was no very real chance of that?

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

The testimony of Arnobius

men's words are NOT inspired; God's WORDS Are Inspired, AND ALL of Them
Are PROFITABLE For {Correct} Sound Doctrine! (2 Timothy 3:16 KJB!)

and Not just "cherry-picked" words...

 

[Magenta]

men's words are NOT inspired; God's WORDS Are Inspired, AND ALL of Them
Are PROFITABLE For {Correct} Sound Doctrine! (2 Timothy 3:16 KJB!)

and Not just "cherry-picked" words...

Yes, that applies to you also. The soul of man is not immortal.

Too many wish to cling to their false doctrine and remain willfully ignorant of its history.

Hmmm...

Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be
as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Physical death, yes? NOT spiritual
+
The corrupted versions of God's Preserved Word Of Truth, ALWAYS Cause Confusion,
Correct?

(twice in verse) consume; consume away: Strongs 3615 kalah ( כָּלָה )
to be complete, at an end, finished, accomplished, or spent

How does one interpret this to mean anything other than what it says?

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
accomplish, cease, consume away, determine, destroy utterly

A primitive root; to end, whether intransitive (to cease, be finished,
perish) or transitived (to complete, prepare, consume) -- accomplish,
cease, consume (away), determine, destroy (utterly), be (when... Were)
done, (be an) end (of), expire, (cause to) fail, faint, finish, fulfil, X fully,
X have, leave (off), long, bring to pass, wholly reap, make clean riddance,
spend, quite take away, waste.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Grace, I'm not sure what you mean here. When you say 'Physical death Yes? Not spiritual--can you please share a verse that support this?

Precious friend, I apologize was Not complete in my "spiritual death" statement;

Should have been "spiritual SECOND Death!" (Rev 20:6)

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

the idea that the dead to God are spiritually alive?

puzzles me how some say death is not punishment

Precious friend, PLEASE do not "put words in our mouths" that WE DID NOT say

 

[Laura798]

Precious friend, I apologize was Not complete in my "spiritual death" statement;

Grace: Should have been "spiritual SECOND Death!" (Rev 20:6)

Grace, you said: 'Should have been'-- Since when has God made you a co-author of scripture? Or are you saying God made a mistake?

I guess you haven't read THIS:

"“And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” "--Revelations 22 18-19

 

[Magenta]

Precious friend, PLEASE do not "put words in our mouths" that WE DID NOT say

People have said those things in this very thread, and if not
explicitly then by implication such as you saying the following:

Physical death, yes? NOT spiritual

Those we speak of are already spiritually dead!!!

If you did not mean to deny it, please explain.

PS~ one of the quotes from me was a post not directed at you so
please do not attribute me saying something to you that I did not.

 

[Laura798]

Precious friend, PLEASE do not "put words in our mouths" that WE DID NOT say

Interesting how full of contradictions you are Grace--you say for Magenta to not put words in your mouth that you did not say, but you think it's okay to put words in God's mouth that he did not say.

 

[Magenta]

Note: "Death is not punishment" has been said explicitly multiple times by some who hold to ECT.

Not just in this thread but others like it as well.

One even said in a previously similar thread that those who
pass into the second death receive eternal life from Satan.

Now what are we to make of such nonsense???

And again we have been told that heaven and hell are not places but states of being.

Such error and syncretism are quite disturbing, to say the least.