Why Are Women Expected to be the Gatekeepers of Virginity?

I think many children arent entirely clueless about how babies are made. If they are smart they might figure it out one day but its really on the adults to explain and give correct information.

also cooking isnt that hard you have recipe books and tv cooking show to show you how if you dont have anyone to teach you.

But finding correct info about sex is a minfield because some people seem to think porn or romance movies show you how sex is. Also people dont have good hygiene practices around it. How many people do it in a drunken or drugged state, dont wash before or after, or have various germs that they can spread though close contact. or have sensitive areas that you are not meant to violate. Not to mention times of the month. None of that is ever talked about in some cultures 'no sex please, we are british' while in america its almost like 'lets sex everything up on the outside and brag about it'
while the indians have entire books on it, but its more about positions than anything. Of course that is taboo to even talk about in some cultures.

if you grew up in the 90s EVERYONE was meant to know what a condom was because of AIDS that killed lots of people. I remeber a 9 year old aids sufferer who went on tv, because she contracted aids via a blood transfusion, pleading with adults if they were going to have sex to at least please use a condom.

Hi John,

I hope you don't mind me breaking up your singular post again so that the points I'd like to specifically address won't be lost.

In the example I gave, Bill knew Sally's history, just as she knew his. In fact, one of the reasons they both got married is because they thought that marriage (and what they were told would be a holy sex life) would be the key to escaping their pasts and the shame it caused.

You brought up the subject of hormones and the fact that they drive our actions -- sometimes beyond our normal responses (you gave the example of a an endocrine system that makes someone still feel hungry even after a big meal.) I know the mechanisms are different, but I also think of things like the alcoholic who still feels the overwhelming urge to drink even after a massive hangover, or the anorexic who, for whatever reason, refuses or can't see the skin and bones in the mirror, and, even though she's absolutely starving, still refuses to eat.

From what I understand, sexual abuse can be a lot like that. It's not just a matter of telling yourself, "This isn't my abuser, this is my spouse, I can feel safe and secure with this person." And since Christian couples wait to have sex after marriage, they often don't find out all the issues they're still having until it's "too late" (and there is no way of getting out of the marriage.)

Several years ago I was very interested in Dr. Ed Smith's Theophostic Ministry because he was a Christian psychologist who specialized in treating people for sexual abuse, and he cried out to God for something that would actually work. One of the things he wrote about extensively was people's inability to just use logic and reason to acclimate to marriage and a spouse.

For example, he talked about one woman who was avoiding her husband but didn't quite know why. After several sessions, she realized that she was uncomfortable with her husband smiling at her affectionately during their private time together. But when Dr. Smith dug a little deeper, it turns out that her childhood abuser used to smile at her as a way of signaling what he would do to her, and she understandably dreaded it. She KNEW that her husband was not her abuser, but she couldn't shake off that feeling of dread.

I think it's very much like addicts who are trying to get clean have come to associate certain cues: places, people, actions such as going on a break -- with former reactions and behaviors, because it becomes nearly impossible to break that association.

For whatever reason, the mind, soul, and body might logically know that the person and situation is different, but yet it can't seem to break free of it.

This is where I always find my heart -- yearning for a way to help people who are suffering in silence -- the victims of abuse who don't know how to break the cycle even after it's been left behind, and the spouses who are suffering due to the fallout.

A friend of mine and I were talking about the power of sexuality. When I was in college, I had a professor who was considered to be one of the leading state experts in abnormal psychology, and it was his professional opinion that pedophiles cannot be cured, but can only be kept away from children, because he had seen every treatment out there and didn't feel that any of them were successful.

My friend and I were talking about how a person's sexuality seems to become permanently bonded to whatever it becomes attached to (whether good or bad, wanted or unwanted,) and it seems nearly impossible to break that bond.

We were discussing the fact that this must be why God is also so strict about where sexuality can be expressed, because God's will is that a person's sexuality would be bonded to one spouse in a permanent union.

For so many people, the choice of what their sexuality was bonded to was taken from them, or they chose the wrong things to attach it to, or maybe a combination of both.

Regardless of how a person got there, I long for God to show us a way in this life to be able to successfully heal and redirect people's sexuality towards what He originally intended.

A lot of what you are saying is true.

And there's a huge reason God says to wait for marriage. For whatever reason our psychological imprinting on the first time is permanent. There's not a person out there who doesn't remember their first time of physical intimacy...and if it's with their spouse so much the better because it builds a very strong psychological bond that can help them weather any storm their relationship will have.

Everyone remembers their first time...for good for evil for whatever... permanent imprinting. Just saying it recalls the person and situation it happened in for everyone.
No one talks about that in our hypersexualized society.

You can't un-strike a match...once it's lit it's no longer the same. But there is life beyond that.

And ultimately it's a choice of wanting to be well. It's about choosing whether the child rapist continues to have control over a person or not. It's a choice about a life consumed by your injuries or consumed by love. It's that whole question Jesus asked the Lame Man in John 5...."Do you want to be well?"

There are lots of people who have had trauma in their childhoods who went on to have full and rich lives. But they made the choice about what they focused on and filled themselves with.

"For out of the abundance of their heart flows what is there"

Reminds me of a light bulb joke. How many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb? Only one, but the light bulb has to WANT to change.

So it's all a matter of mind over matter, eh? If you don't mind, it no longer matters?

Wait, doesn't that contradict the whole thing about being controlled by hormones?

Now I'm confused about what you're trying to say.

I think you're trying to have a different discussion from what Seoul is having. No one here (well at least most of us) is going to disagree with you that God's standard and ideal is the best way to go about things. But we get people coming into church who by their own decisions or by the decisions of others have missed that ideal. How can they be restored to wholeness and experience all the good that God intended for them? And unfortunately, it isn't as simple as reasoning it out in your head and knowing what's going on. You can't logic away emotional responses (even if logic can help you make good decisions when your emotions are urging you to do something stupid).

It is an age old argument that doesn't have to be an argument. (Nature vs Nurture)
Sure hormones play a role...so does environment. Both play their respective roles. Both are powerful influences on people in general. You either live in a community where people are manipulated, discounted, and objectified or you live in an environment where people are treasured, respected, and valued.

People can rise above their physical discomforts...but they have to want to. Just like the guy who liked running and the day he got a decent pair of running shoes he exclaimed "I didn't know that it wasn't supposed to hurt".
The vast majority of people would have refrained from walking much less running. But the human spirit is always capable of rising above.
The boy of course didn't enjoy the pain but he enjoyed running more than the pain he endured of sore feet.
And if a race was going to be created among those whose feet hurt when they ran...would the boy have had anyone else enter the race besides him?

Two things I wish Jesus would have given examples of Him healing in the New Testament would be addiction and sexual abuse.

For example, if an alcoholic would have approached Jesus for help, would it have gone as easily as Jesus saying, "Do you want to be well?" And if it would have been that simple, why aren't we seeing that today? I've known many alcoholics who are in church every Sunday, and they are sincere about wanting to be well, but it still hasn't happened.

Would sexual abuse or addiction follow the same pattern? Would Jesus just ask if the person wanted to be well, and then poof, the person would then go on to have an amazing married sex life from then on, assumed that they were or would get married?

I'm always interested in the long haul.

One thing I think about is that the New Testament tells us about wondrous, miraculous healings, but it doesn't tell us what happened to the person years down the road. For instance, when Lazarus died the second time, did anyone care? Did people think he would miraculously rise again because Jesus had deemed it important enough to raise him the first time? Did people think that because of this, Lazarus would never die, and how did they feel when he finally did? Did it cause them to doubt Jesus, because Lazarus finally did die?

I knew a pastor once who, and I don't know the details, only what he told me, claimed that he prayed over two separate individuals who had asked for healing, and were subsequently healed of blindness.

The power of God at work!!! Miracles right in the midst of the modern world! Hallelujah!!!

But in both cases, the pastor said he had to confront both of these people about the way they were living. You see, according to him, their disability had led them to become accustomed to a life of handouts and having things done for them. I'm not trying to be critical in any way, just factual of this particular situation. The pastor told them both that they had to get jobs and start providing for themselves, but instead, they both chose to pretend to continue being blind and lived off other people.

Within a year, both were dead from overdoses.

I have no doubt that both of these people wanted to see. But I also understand that neither was prepared nor willing to make the transition into taking on the responsible life that this would require.

It also reminds me of co-workers I have had who underwent weight loss surgery. They genuinely wanted to be well. But if they went back to the way they ate before the surgery, all the wanting to be well in the world wouldn't matter.

I understand that people can make their own conscious choices, and that most think they want to be well, but are they actually willing to take on the responsibilities that wellness would require? For instance, I talked to a woman once who was honest enough to admit that she missed the attention her old abusers used to give her, and that she found being married to be quite stale and boring.

Dr. Smith also wrote about a male patient whom God had to lead to repentance for purposely visiting his abuser, knowing what would happen, before he could be healed.

I just personally believe that it's often not as simple as a person wanting to be well, and there are a plethora of other factors behind their condition, and a multitude of outcomes are possible because everyone is different.

Everyone is injured in some fashion...no one escapes life without some form of scars over something. But that's why it's called character.

I can sit and mope about losing something that was taken...or I can go beyond and live life to the fullest in spite of the thieves.

In the Electrical Union electricians make a high wage and benefits. But there is so little work available through the union you about starve to death. But if you choose to work non-union jobs you end up making 4 times the money you can in the union on a yearly basis. And there are those who work union jobs only and those who work non-union.

Yes, union jobs are easier and slower paced...the pay is great and all that.
And I could sit around and wait for those jobs to come up and only work those or I can go sign up to work with an agency or a contractor and work hard for less money...

@seoulsearch ...
Very true...which dovetails perfectly. It's your identity that matters most. You can either see yourself as a person who is overweight or trim. As a victim or someone having an idealic life. As a child of God with responsibilities and privileges or as a person who needs to be in the intensive care ward at the hospital for wounded souls.

We would like to think that we know ourselves... unfortunately we don't.
Everyone takes those personality tests but few ever get them correct. Get several others who know you well to fill in those answers as they perceive you. Then let your jaw hit the floor.

What we see isn't exactly what others see.

Something that immediately comes to mind is that God never warned against things that cause blindness... one ailment He healed a lot. But He sure did put a lot in the Bible about drinking.

Sometimes it's a matter of want-to. Sometimes it goes deeper than that, if the runner can only get shoes that cause permanent damage to his feet, if decent shoes are not available in his area.

Not wanting to minimize anyone's pain or struggle, but I'm not sure that the idea of being able to be healed of these things is one that the Biblical authors would have or comprehend. It's only in the last couple hundred years that we've pathologized addiction and mental illness so the idea of seeing those as diseases that needed healing would be foreign to the culture the Bible was written in.

I think the closest we come to seeing Jesus address something like this is when he tells "sinful" women to leave their life of sin. Because ultimately addictions (including sexual addiction) are behavioral. And there's a lot of behavioral guidance in the Bible. What there's very little of is qualifications of the why you're doing this wrong behavior. Doesn't matter if you were abused or addicted to porn or what before you became a Christian, now God's rule and guidance is sex with only your spouse. Doesn't matter why you get drunk, drunkenness isn't compatible with a Christian life. I do believe that part of the salvation and sanctification process is God working on your emotions and lies you've believed, etc, and I'm not going to say that seeking mental and emotional healing is an ungodly thing; I'm just saying that the sinful behavior brings death and destruction regardless of the reasons it got a foothold. And that the categories we think in today are not the same as the categories people thought in 2000 years ago.

I'm having trouble articulating the other half of these thoughts which is something along the lines that as we became more Christian many types of suffering became the exception not the rule and we lost our ability to relate and speak to it. We now think of suffering as exceptional rather than a normal part of life and that has to have a huge impact on how we respond to people in the midst of suffering (and maybe be happy pills aren't always the best answer).

A baby needs constant attention...I don't know of a person alive temporarily charged with the care of a baby who won't change a diaper or give it a bottle... because they understand that they are responsible and there is no one else to do it.
This is similar to the responsibilities of the "called out ones" or ecclesia or commonly known as Christians.

There isn't anyone else. We have to do what we must as we have responsibilities. We have been granted salvation so we can have a more full and rich life than anyone else.

One of my favorite movies is Cowboys vs Aliens...
The MC (suffering from amnesia)is talking to the preacher who is dying and the preacher tells him "God doesn't care who you were; He cares about who you are.". And indeed the MC was a thug and a criminal... until he got amnesia. Then he began living a very different sort of life. A respectable one.

Nothing more true could have been said. Best line of what otherwise was a strange movie.

Sounds like the plot in Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic. The main character is a good guy who finds out he used to be the main bad guy before the Jedi Council wiped his memory.

Unfortunately a lot of people don't have the blessing of amnesia. What doesn't kill you often doesn't make you stronger either. It just leaves you with a lot of unhealthy coping mechanisms.

The amnesia isn't the focus...

It's the self identity that is. Who are you? That's the question that matters.

A victim or an aide worker. A hero or the damsel in distress?

Sometimes you don't get to choose.

This conversation reminds me of something I heard on DryBar comedy yesterday. This comedian was talking about sports, and how the worst thing about the playoffs is they let the athletes have a microphone.

Sometimes you don't get to decide if you're the aide worker. Sometimes you are still the victim and you need the aide worker's help.

Or you could be a victim of an aide worker. Or bad aid from an ad worker.

Of course it takes time to heal emotionally from being abused... never suggested otherwise.

That doesn't mean though that the team of abused children can't grow up and become an extremely formidable team to defend and attack.

So yes, you do get a choice...

But just because this is the internet and irrational questions get put forth....

If you have no legs you aren't going to be a runner. Might be great in a wheelchair event but running is obviously a physical limitation. We aren't discussing those.

I've personally witnessed many "victims" become healthy and whole. It's ultimately about letting the abuser define your identity or God. It's about being a slave to the abuser(even though they are incarcerated) or God's slave. Everyone gets a choice.

A LOT more is required to the question "Do you want to be well?" Than the expected lip service answer.

Are you common or holy?
Are you of God's royal court with position, authority and access or a beggar/pickpocket hiding in the shadows of the streets hoping to not get kicked around again?

God has said who you are... you can either accept it in faith or believe the others.

You have read "The Power Of Positive Thinking" in the last six months. I can tell.

I don't believe he did or that is what was intended from the beginning. I once heard a preacher talking and he made it clear it was not doctrinal as he could not prove it biblically.

Anyway he was saying how we now live in a world post fall. So going by what we see and the sin nature. He had speculated since the fall one of the changes that happened to mankind is men had become insensitive after the fall and women hypersensitive after the fall. So may be a case that men became hypersexual after the fall. Heard a female shrink once say that women want one man for everything and men want every woman for one thing. Individual cases aside I would say for the general she was speaking fact.

When we read in the gospels Christ says that Moses allowed a bill of divorce because of the hardness of their hearts. However, God had planned and created them man and woman. So I think it is very probable that it has fallen this way because of well the fall. As well Peter tells us how Lot was righteous but he was vexed living amongst the sin around him.

It affected him, Lot, cause no matter how many times I read the story, for him to offer up his daughters to me is just like wow. So we are now many decades post the sexual revolution. Which I am in agreement with folks who say the sexual revolution has had more changes on or western culture than any other revolution.

So I have to wonder now living in the post sexual revolution just how much that culture has affected us being daily bombarded by it.

Seems to me though that prior to the 60's that women were the gate keepers to sex and men the gate keepers to marriage. Which somehow it worked cause they often were each others first or if not the body counts could be tallied on one hand and still have some fingers left over. It worked because they were together for life and 5 or 6 decade long marriages were a normative amongst them.

So I would have to lean prior to the fall God had intended that both male and female keep themselves till marriage. To which any previous burden that women had could be a case of after the fall there was a imbalance where men and women became hyper. Depending of course on what the characteristic may be.

Which it does not have to be negative to be more aware or hyper. For example I have found women are better at social interactions and reading a room in a social environment. So many of wives being more socially aware have saved some husbands skins by saying come on lets go home before the man made a show of himself. So anyway just a example how being more aware or hyper may not always be a negative.

As well maybe the previous burden that fell upon women to be the guardians maybe it was a good thing cause being married for life was more a normative than today. Today however, I am not so sure anymore if anyone is being the gate keeper, in the world at least or more so in our western culture post the sexual revolution.

Exceptions of course for people of faith or cultural morality. Absent people who may fall under these exceptions to me just seems the world has become a free for all and the short length of marriages, lack of marriages, single parent households, and etc. It just seems to yell quite loudly something is not right and this is not working.

Nope....heard of the book but haven't read it or really wanted to.

So many people would rather believe in fantasy rather than reality. We create fantasy scenarios in our heads and focus on the things that happen to prove them to be truth.

I know a woman who has a horrible disfiguring strawberry across her face and body in horrible splotches. Totally distracting from her appearance.
But she didn't let it define her. She was such a pleasant and giving person it was remarkable. Ended up with a great guy for a husband too. I smile every time I think or see them.

Now she could have felt abused and disfigured by everyone's reaction to her appearance...but she chose to not accept that. And got the rewards for her attitude. No, she didn't marry straight out of high school... didn't have a boyfriend in high school. (Kids aren't innocent, they are cruel)

But when she got out of academia she decided to be different...to be who she wanted to be instead of what everyone told her to be.