How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

^ @DavidTree , throughout this thread I've pointed out a number of places where it has been YOU who has changed up the wording, and when you look at what I've pointed out, sometimes you've replied with [something to the effect of] "oh it doesn't matter [that I've changed it]".... So yeah, look in the mirror when you hurl that accusation repeatedly.

lol x100 you have only pointed to yourself who 'adds to and takes away' from the word of the Lord.

Just as the the previous posts prove - God has spoken, it is written and there is nothing you can do about it but to obey Him in it.
Those who worship an idol, twist the words of the Lord just as the Serpent did in the Garden.

It is a Great Joy to sit at the feet of Jesus and believe His Word.
Adding to and taking away from Scripture is forbidden.

There are six things that the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to Him:
haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that run swiftly to evil,
a false witness who gives false testimony,
and one who stirs up discord among brothers. Proverbs 6

The error of pre-trib sows discord and division amongst the Body of Christ.

The misapprehensions of the post-tribbers have their roots in the age-old error: The conflation of the Church and Israel.

There are hundreds and HUNDREDS of prophecies and verses that proclaim that ISRAEL shall be punished, chastised and suffer wrath by God.....BEFORE they are blessed (by Gods grace and power) by being GIVEN a new heart of flesh, knowledge, obedience and redemption. Several chapters in Daniel indicate a specific span of time where God's peculiar attention to this deliberate task is prophesied. This must occur as presently Israel is NOT REDEEMED, JUSTIFIED, and MADE PERFECTLY RIGHTEOUS AND HOLY....lest they also be destroyed with the wicked at the coming of the Lord Jesus to reign on the earth.

On the other hand, we, the Church, ARE NOW, PRESENTLY in a state of having ALREADY having been redeemed, justified, and made perfectly righteous and holy by the blood of the Lamb. We, therefore DO NOT suffer UNJUSTIFIED wrath.

The confused post-tribbers are forever and perpetually sticking the Church into passages where they do not exist (Matt 24, 25, Mark 13, Luke 12, etc)

Are you even listening to what is being spoken? If you have ears to hear....please hear what TDW has to say.

i only give my ear to hear what the Spirit says to the churches -
"To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne."

i do not add to or take away from God's words - therefore i am not a liar.

My Lord Jesus Christ says to me, from His word, David this is for you: "Because you have kept My command to persevere, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."
"I am coming soon. Hold fast to what you have, so that no one will take your crown."

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them.
We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us.
By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

Who are you hearing from? man or the Lord Jesus Christ?
For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.

Do you not realize that our love for each other must rest upon His Word - where we cast our crowns at His feet.

Wait...Two things come to mind from your post CV5,

"specific span of time"

1) Isn't the very notion of a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel - and a 2k year delay between the Olivet Discourse and its fulfillment - in fact, you wedging the Church into prophecies for Israel where the church doesn't exist? The argument I've heard for this gap period is "the church age".


2) Can't The Almighty do more than one thing at a time? I mean we mere humans do all the time, so can't He?

Can't He judge Israel while blessing Gentile believers? Wouldn't it be more efficient to do it that way? In fact, isn't this what Romans 11 literally explains was the plan; that such salvation & blessing for (what we label) "the church" would come at the expense of the suffering Israel would experience?

And if Romans 11's fulfillment began at the time Paul took the gospel to the gentiles (approx. 2k years ago), shouldn't it reasonably follow (again) that Israel's great tribulation somehow fits within these last 2k years?

[This would make us ALL technically "post-trib", while still avoiding the prophesied "great trib" meant for Israel, though we still experience our own trials and "tribs" in life as believers in fulfillment of scripture, "until the times of the Gentiles are complete."]

"Historicism!"

Hmmmm - that is interesting. I am thinking that I start - stay in - and end up - with historicism.

I am not a preterist.

You are a nice guy GaryA. I hope that I don't sound too harsh at times.

But how can you say that you are not a preterist if you believe that the 70th week of Daniel runs concurrent with the crucifixion, and has run its course? You see, the Book of Revelation = 70th week (from ch 6 onward).

I must also reject the vast majority of historicist views on many grounds. Unscriptural and downright bizarre at times. But some very few aspects are actually agreeable to me.

However...futurism...well THAT is yielding all the right answers and checking all the prophetical boxes. Futurism and literalism connects all the dots, ties up all the loose ends, and leaves no scripture or prophecy an orphan.

Well we fully believe His Word as it pertains to the fallen nation of Israel who rejected their Messiah - the Lord Jesus Christ.

Remember dear brother, you, me, we are commanded not to "add or take away" from God's word.

Our Lord interjected His Bride in Matthew 24 & 25 = "the elect"
Our Lord told the Jews/Israel who rejected Him that He and His Bride was passing them by in Matthew 23

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! Look, your house is left to you desolate.
For I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." Matt 23

Our Lord's words are ONLY and have always been only for His Elect since the very Beginning.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ,
both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.
In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

pre-trib error never stops and leads to more and more error becuase it must in order to stay alive.

Thanks - it seems that I am rarely told such things...

Is it not true that the essential main difference between preterism and historicism is that preterism believes most-or-all of Revelation and Olivet Discourse prophecy was fulfilled by 70 A.D. whereas historicism believes the same prophecy was fulfilled over the past ~2000 years and into the future? (meaning all has not been fulfilled)

Is it not true that both preterism and historicism believe the 70 weeks to be a singular 490-year span of time - with no gaps...?

Please stop with your rambling excoriations. They really don't have much to the conversation.

But more to the point in your opinion what is to become of Israel? Restored to sonship, service and glory as per Gods infallible promise? Or abandoned and kicked to the curb forever?

Gary.......I'm just trying to get a straight answer. Yes I'm very well aware of the different flavors of those theories. But to get back to the point I am asking if, in your opinion, the 70th week of Daniel has been fulfilled 2000, years ago, running concurrent with the crucifixion.

lol x100 i love your funny loss of words to Scripture as though it is 'my ramblings' - funny

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling!
Look, your house is left to you desolate.
For I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’
Matt ch23

Scripture cannot lie and our Lord does not lie. That would leave only you and me and i do not add to Scripture.

"Do not add to or take away from God's words less you He rebuke you and prove you a liar" = His Word

The Day of Jacob's Trouble will come to the Jews/Israel - Zechariah ch13 & ch14
And in all the land, declares the LORD, two-thirds will be cut off and perish, but a third will be left in it.
This third I will bring through the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold.
They will call on My name, and I will answer them.
I will say, ‘They are My people,’
and they will say, ‘The LORD is our God.’

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided in your presence. For I will gather all the nations for battle against Jerusalem, and the city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women ravished. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city.
Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle.
On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem

A reminder of what scripture says about timeframe of the rapture:

The rapture is after the Great Tribulation has ended, after Christ's second coming begins, after the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

The resurrection only happens at the second coming and the second coming can only happen after the trib has ended, and since the verses tell us the rapture happens AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these verses decisively prove the rapture is post-trib not pre-trib.

It's that simple.

Christ also spoke of the rapture but used the wording of saints being gathered together, and no surprise, placed it after the end of the Great Tribulation.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation (great tribulation has ended) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (second coming reference) in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect (*another way to speak of the Rapture) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

*(also see 2nd Thessalonians 2:1 for the same language regarding the Rapture)

Timing of the gathering/rapturing is exactly the same in these two passages. In both we have saved Christians being moved from one place to another and in both that happens after the tribulation has ended and when the second coming has commenced.


A rapture before the second coming and before the resurrection is scripturally impossible and the second coming cannot happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat 24:29-30.

Let's back up slightly to establish context:



Paul is clear the rapture happens after the resurrection and the resurrection happens after the second coming. There is no pre-trib rapture in scripture.


It never fails to amaze me that a thread about the Rapture does not include the actual verses that speak of the Rapture and when it happens.

Rapture is an English word that comes from a Greek word which is Harpazo. Here is the Harpazo/Rapture and when it happens:


1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (Harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


This is the rapture and it happens after the second coming of Christ which only happens once the great tribulation has ended. The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul in verse 17.


So, the proper order of events according to scripture:

1. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16) (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)
2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)
This proves the pre-trib (and mid-trib) rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30

So, the second coming happens and then the resurrection and then the rapture, all after the trib has ended.


A rapture before the tribulation is impossible according to Mat 24:29-30, and a rapture before the second coming is impossible according to 1Th 4:13-17.


So, the proper order of events according to scripture including Mat_24:29:

1. the great tribulation ends. (Mat_24:29)
2. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16, Mat_24:30)
3. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
4. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)

I use the only verse in which the word rapture is even used! The order of events is given as second coming first, then the resurrection of the dead in Christ and lastly the rapture of the living Christians. None of those three things happen until the tribulation has ended.

Christ does not return before the trib has ended.

The resurrection does not happen before the trib has ended.

The rapture does not happen before the trib has ended.

No other scripture contradicts the order and timing that Paul wrote about.

OK man...lets try this again:
In your opinion what is to become of Israel? Restored to sonship, service and glory as per Gods infallible promise? Or abandoned and kicked to the curb forever?

Yes or no answer.
Yes means you think Israel will be redeemed.

No means you think Israel has been abandoned by God and been replaced by the Church.

Just reply with YES or NO. I will take it from there.

The same as any other people. Those who accept Christ are saved and will live in NJ. Those who reject Christ will go into lake of fire.

No one is able to be saved and reject Jesus.

lol - this is friendly laughter by the way - you may not know this but i do appreciate you

AFFIRMATIVE

You know i was escorted out of a church many years ago because i told them that God has not forgotten the People He foreknew and He has a Plan for their Restoration at His Second Coming - go figure

There is only One Gospel for the Jew and the Gentile and there is only One Bride of Christ consisting of all nations who are washed in His Blood and Born of the Spirit of God/Holy Spirit.

I have seen nothing in the last decade that has in the slightest induced me to doubt the pre-trib rapture. In fact quite the contrary. For example what you have just posted makes it clear that the post tribbers are perpetually dead wrong due to the perpetually same errors.

For example....the Church is NOWHERE to be found in Matt 24. Or Mark 13. For starters. Once that mistake is made....your entire thesis is in the weeds and must be decommissioned as worthless.

The problem? Shoddy threadbare lacklustre scholarship.

The solution? Read everything TheDivineWatermark has posted on the matter and get your game on.

Well you nailed it - this is your mistake = "the Church is NOWHERE to be found in Matt 24. Or Mark 13"

This mistake comes from pride and deceives you into believing that you can "add to and take away" from Scripture.

Who are you to deside who His Elect are? This is very bad my friend and goes against the words of our Lord and the Apostles.

elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 1