Eternal Security: What do you do with James 2?

Lol brother we often do that I have noticed

but it’s the same with the apostles same message dofferent wordings and details I think of we all spoke the exact same fewer would be able to understand us but if we’re saying the same things with varying words more can relate to the language and examples

probably by design because we all aren’t at the same place and able to hear the same words yet we one day will realize mostly all Of us we’re on the same side and maybe we just werent relating as well to the language and presentation

it’s only when one is rejecting God word that we become misleading or become in danger but we don’t all hear the same things at the same time and I feel
It’s by his design to reach us wherever we are in our walk rejecting Christs word is our only condemnation

we may stumble and even sink below the water sometimes lacking faith to walk like even the apostle Peter did , but if we’re stepping after his Will he’s always going to rescue us and set us back in the safety of his boat

it’s truly only my own belief that I can ever state here , but I’m convinced that the gospel is the gospel and isn’t a hard rule list engraved upon stone and presenting our certain death for sin , but rather is a living and active word of God that offers certain life to those who were condemned beforehand

This.

beautifully said and so true. I can witness to this in my Spirit

Lol as you say.
As said we seem to agree.
All were condemned before hand.
That's the good news.
As a result of faith not longer.

Yes we will stumble, lack faith just like Peter did, like Thomas did, infact like they all did.
I just want to say though that many believers anticipate that they will fall and accept that they will.
I know that because I was definitely that person, not as bad now but still struggle with it. This as a result of my past which led to issues in my life not consistent to my faith,
Or should I say lack of it.

I never lost my faith but needed help but lacked faith because of 30 years of hurt and pain and no progress I felt Jesus had rejected me.
It was shape up or ship out.

We need to change this mind concept or the psychological term "Paradigm"

Intersesting though with the disciples it seems they lost faith as such.
Defeated and devastated and hid.
So they had faith or will to seek Jesus because he was dead.
Yet we see Jesus suddenly appeared to them.

He went them and not the other way.

I believe Jesus seeks out those or are his and have gone astray.
The good shepherd seeks the dumb sheep who has gone astray.
And carries them back.

I remember once when I was having counseling and as they were praying for me they could see I was in distress.

My eyes were closed and they asked my "What are you thinking, seeing?

I will convey in a polite way so as not to offend anyone.
Just to say I was a believer.

Here is what I said.

"I am sitting in a bin and it's full of s**t that's my life"
They asked me
"What do you think Jesus say or ask you do"
I said
"Hey Bill here is my hand, reach out and I will pull you out"
They said no he wouldn't.
I was confused.
They then said to me.

"Jesus would say, move over I'm coming in, gonna sit in this bin with you and we will walk out of this bin together"

That is Jesus, our saviour.
He sought out the broken hearted, the marginalised.

God promised a bruised Reed he would not break.

Jesus seeks those who are his and have gone astray.

I will never forget the above.
That Jesus will walk with me as I am and when I am weak when my burden is heavy he says "Give me yours and I will give you mine, it's not heavy, just trust me"

As Forrest Gump says.

"That's all I have got to say about that"

Who is the audience? Maybe start there.

Would you mind expanding as to why?

Your personal experience.

It may help others on this thread.

I love that because we’re all sharing on that spirit witnessing to others !! God bless I’m glad you found some value

James is not teaching contradictory to the gospel. As I already explained in post #122, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) *PERFECT HARMONY*

James does not have it wrong. Once again, in the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.

Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23)

If Noah would have refused to build the ark, then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith in believing that God was going to flood the earth, but of course, that was not the case.

Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith, not the origin of it. Building the ark demonstrated his faith and saved him and his family (physically) from drowning. (Hebrews 11:17)

Are you saying that works are the very essence of faith? Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith in Christ, but not the essence of faith and also not the basis or means by which we obtain salvation.

How many works of faith do we need to do in order to help Jesus save us? Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28) If our faith is genuine then we will produce works -- some more than others.

Every creature in the world

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Believers are the audience. I wasn’t at all looking to get back into the diversionary debate with you . maybe stop trying to seperate Jew from gentile. Christ is for everyone who believes

“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

yes a lot of folks explain a lot of things here just like you have explaining away the simplicity of truth

. But why can’t you answer the simple question of what happens if one doesn’t do the works of faith ?

so you do agree with James then ?

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

yes brother I see nothing to disagree with could be my story you wrote with of course some different details , this really is everyone’s story.

“I know that because I was definitely that person, not as bad now but still struggle with it. This as a result of my past which led to issues in my life not consistent to my faith,
Or should I say lack of it.”

as you grew in faith your legs became stronger for walking by faith but we’re fallible and will fall Indeed , but that’s how we learn to get back up and persevere

Jesus comes to us as we are even waits until we realize we’re in a really bad state often it takes us breaking before we can hear and respond. He isn’t about to abandon us when our ears are stopped up , but he’s always going to call us to take steps of faith see I think we have to acknowledge this stuff as well because it shapes our faith

Paul spends about half of Galatians teaching about grace and then as he most often does he teaches about repentance

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like:

of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This occurs in nearly everything Paul wrote

“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:3-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death,

or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:15-18, 22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Most often people move around those warnings and clear teachings of our works but it’s not ever going to produce saving faith or an inheritance in the everlasting kingdom of God because of our works continue serving the flesh rather than the spirit

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:22-26‬ ‭

we need to let it all in so Gods word can bring forth the fruits of righteousness and leave our old man behind in the grave our deeds tell the truth of what’s in our heart and so this is just and certain

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the truth will turn us from sin and toward godly works because it changes us we can just be who he’s made us to be but if we continue serving the devils will we don’t have any salvstion ahead

the past is finished but today is always the day of salvstion if we turn to God or if we have as we continue walking or even if we have stimbled today and fallen lost strength he’s not looking tomlesve us behind but it’s perfectly free for us to walk away from him

What am I explaining away? Do you (mis)interpret "justified by works" in James 2:24 to mean "saved/accounted as righteous" by works in contradiction to Romans 4:2-6?

Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. -- CRYSTAL CLEAR.

I did answer the simple question and so does James. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. Simple!

Of course I agree with James and Paul and the harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 4:5-6;; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

You quoted out of Mark and Galatians. Who is the book of James addressed to? Always consider the audience. "To whom is the passage written to, to whom does this doctrine apply?"

Not all doctrines apply to the body of Christ.

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

To which of the twelve tribes do you belong?

Before God or others? Who does the audience of James justify themselves to? God? Others?

yep so what happens to a professing Christian who doesn’t do the works called for by faith ?

If someone merely "professes" to be a Christian (says/claims to have faith) yet produces no works at all, then they demonstrate that they have an "empty profession of faith/dead faith" and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.

Does it really make that much difference? Some say God and some say others and some say both. Believers are shown to be righteous by works. We show our faith by our works. (James 2:18)

like I was saying I’m not looking to get back into the same debate we argued last week . The whole idea of certain epistles being for certain groups is erroneous and just another way to avoid the truth Paul is an apostle so is Peter so is John but Jesus is Lord of all

the New Testament is for any believer lol Jew and gentile make no matter anymore Jew and gentile both face this

“Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

For there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Was Paul not writing to the church ? Because we all gave the same jidgement the gospel is sent out to all to save us beforehand and offer repentance

your stuck on the ot when Jew and gentile were seperated, still applying the New Testament that way but it’s because you want the doctrine of men explaining “there’s nothing to see here “

it’s odd because that’s been satans message from the start God spoke life he comes along and insists that’s not for you …. We should learn eventually where eternal Life is found and it’s not in the imaginary second gospel taught by Joseph prince and Paul Ellis I’m sorry to say

So what happens if a Christian doesn’t do the works set before us ? What. Becomes of them are they also saved by grace ?

I think we probably agree