Eternal Security: What do you do with James 2?
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It's contradictory to teach that we are saved by faith AND WORKS when God's word clearly states we are saved by grace through faith, NOT WORKS. (Ephesians 2:8,9)
That salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS is not hard to understand. It's just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT.
I see that you also teach salvation by faith AND WORKS through your misinterpretation of James 2:21-24.
In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac on the altar recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.
Faith "made perfect or complete" by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
The scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.
In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.
Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. *Paul could not have been any clearer.*
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness. For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. (Matthew 12:34)
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." That is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
It's not about omitting or negating the rest of scripture and we must properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine. The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.
It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 4:5-6;; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*
Yes, maintain good works but not for the purpose of maintaining salvation. From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS.
Absolutely! This is what we are saved FOR and NOT BY. (Ephesians 2:8-10; 1 John 3:11) We could never produce enough good works to earn or merit our salvation.
Ephesians 2:10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Good works are what we are saved FOR and NOT BY.
That salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS is not hard to understand. It's just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT.
I see that you also teach salvation by faith AND WORKS through your misinterpretation of James 2:21-24.
In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac on the altar recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.
Faith "made perfect or complete" by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
The scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.
In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.
Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. *Paul could not have been any clearer.*
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness. For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. (Matthew 12:34)
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." That is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
It's not about omitting or negating the rest of scripture and we must properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine. The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.
It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 4:5-6;; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*
Yes, maintain good works but not for the purpose of maintaining salvation. From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS.
Absolutely! This is what we are saved FOR and NOT BY. (Ephesians 2:8-10; 1 John 3:11) We could never produce enough good works to earn or merit our salvation.
Ephesians 2:10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Good works are what we are saved FOR and NOT BY.
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Yeah, I agree. Maybe that is why this test is so simple.
“Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.”
1 John 4:1-3 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/1jn.4.1-3.ESV
“Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.”
1 John 4:1-3 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/1jn.4.1-3.ESV
It's contradictory to teach that we are saved by faith AND WORKS when God's word clearly states we are saved by grace through faith, NOT WORKS. (Ephesians 2:8,9)
That salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS is not hard to understand. It's just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT.
I see that you also teach salvation by faith AND WORKS through your misinterpretation of James 2:21-24.
In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac on the altar recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.
Faith "made perfect or complete" by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
The scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.
In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.
Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. *Paul could not have been any clearer.*
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness. For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. (Matthew 12:34)
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." That is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
It's not about omitting or negating the rest of scripture and we must properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine. The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.
It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 4:5-6;; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*
Yes, maintain good works but not for the purpose of maintaining salvation. From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS.
Absolutely! This is what we are saved FOR and NOT BY. (Ephesians 2:8-10; 1 John 3:11) We could never produce enough good works to earn or merit our salvation.
Ephesians 2:10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Good works are what we are saved FOR and NOT BY.
That salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS is not hard to understand. It's just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT.
I see that you also teach salvation by faith AND WORKS through your misinterpretation of James 2:21-24.
In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac on the altar recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.
Faith "made perfect or complete" by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
The scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.
In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.
Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. *Paul could not have been any clearer.*
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness. For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. (Matthew 12:34)
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." That is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
It's not about omitting or negating the rest of scripture and we must properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine. The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.
It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 4:5-6;; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*
Yes, maintain good works but not for the purpose of maintaining salvation. From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS.
Absolutely! This is what we are saved FOR and NOT BY. (Ephesians 2:8-10; 1 John 3:11) We could never produce enough good works to earn or merit our salvation.
Ephesians 2:10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Good works are what we are saved FOR and NOT BY.
“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”
James 2:24
your explanation is that James has it wrong ?
Also what happens if we don’t do the works set in front of us by faith ? Are we saved without doing those works ?
so for instance what would have become of Noah who was saved by grace through faith if he insisted he didn’t need to do what God told him to do in building an ark ? Wouldnt Noah have drowned if he took the view faith saved me so the works are irrelevant ?
it seems like a circle to me , and exactly James point to say we have faith is one thing to actually have faith is going to bring us to the point of actually doing the things God said will save us because of course that’s where faith comes from
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:17 KJV
by grace Noah was elected for salvation
“But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.”
Genesis 6:8 KJV
so God spoke the truth to him
“And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
Make thee an ark of gopher wood;…
Genesis 6:13-14 KJV
Noah had faith in God so he believed him
“Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.”
Genesis 6:22 KJV
that’s being saved by grace through faith and without Noah’s works he would t have been saved by faith we can go in a circle but what happens if we say I believe I believe but refuse to hear the truth about our works ?
“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
Hebrews 11:7 KJV
I think ultimately when you convince yourself works aren’t part of faith we’re creating an imaginary out of doing the right things God has told us will save us and then labeling it faith
what happens if we don’t do the works of faith ?
I’m saying a lot of people use the example of the thief saying no works are needed but we don’t know what his works were because we only have a moment of his death to see.
I’m saying no one actually knows his works and there are a lot of possibilities with the thief but it’s mostly all conjecture is all
I’m getting at was he baptized ? No one actually knows , did he love people in deed and truth ? Share with the poor ? Was he in one of the crowds of multitudes who followed and heard Jesus ?
no one actually knows anything about him but that he confessed his sins , had heard the gospel of the kingdom and believed and recognized Christ as the king the promised messiah .
we know very little of him but that he was saved and when he died he yet lives with Christ in paradise
it’s not my place to say who’s saved brother
I’m saying that up front we need to accept the gospel and not eliminate it because of a few isolated verses from Paul that if the context is removed can be made to sound like anything
Christs word is salvation and leads to ending these types of works ( sin )
“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
Ephesians 5:3-7 KJV
and creates these types of works
“For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.”
Ephesians 5:8-17 KJV
To believe the gospel teaches us Gods will and to continue in the gospel leads here
“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”
Matthew 7:21 KJV
mainly I’m saying faith and works are part of the same salvetion faith comes first when we hear the truth and that saves us because we believe it leads to us doing the right things that saves us
I’m saying that up front we need to accept the gospel and not eliminate it because of a few isolated verses from Paul that if the context is removed can be made to sound like anything
Christs word is salvation and leads to ending these types of works ( sin )
“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
Ephesians 5:3-7 KJV
and creates these types of works
“For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.”
Ephesians 5:8-17 KJV
To believe the gospel teaches us Gods will and to continue in the gospel leads here
“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”
Matthew 7:21 KJV
mainly I’m saying faith and works are part of the same salvetion faith comes first when we hear the truth and that saves us because we believe it leads to us doing the right things that saves us
Amen to all you said there you have t misread it and do very well not to ignore James or let anyone circle around what he made plain as Paul also did if we accept what Paul taught as a whole d don’t eliminate it by a verse or two we choose to accept
people have misunderstood Paul for ages because they can’t seperate the works of Moses law to unsporitual and unrepentant people that don’t actually teach “ good works “ but ordinance keeping and ritual obedience that profits no one “ certain ceremonies and washings , attendance to different feasts , paying your atonement token , sacrificing a lamb for Passover once a year ect
none of those things are part of the gospel because Christ has fulfilled those prophetic examples of himself foind in the law of Moses which was preached until he began to preach the truth and will of God
“The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
Luke 16:16
“Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.”
John 7:16-17
not murder if one another isn’t something you need to teach Gods born again children , instead you teach them to love one another. You don’t have to teach a child of God not to commit adultery , instead you teach them not to entertain lustful ideas and fantasy in thier heart to keep them on the right path of being faithful
Jesus was teaching salvstion from sin and a new birth into a new life and identity as Gods beloved children , Moses had taught sinners about sin and death. Not killing lying and cheating is t a good image of Gods Will in Christ but loving one another actively and in deed and truth is a good and perfect image of his Will
the works of the law aren’t for the born again children of God it’s for these
“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.”
1 Timothy 1:9-11 KJV
while the gospel teachings are for these
“But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:”
Luke 6:35-37
God is never going to discourage his children from doing good and will always spur us to do the works of salvstion
people have misunderstood Paul for ages because they can’t seperate the works of Moses law to unsporitual and unrepentant people that don’t actually teach “ good works “ but ordinance keeping and ritual obedience that profits no one “ certain ceremonies and washings , attendance to different feasts , paying your atonement token , sacrificing a lamb for Passover once a year ect
none of those things are part of the gospel because Christ has fulfilled those prophetic examples of himself foind in the law of Moses which was preached until he began to preach the truth and will of God
“The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
Luke 16:16
“Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.”
John 7:16-17
not murder if one another isn’t something you need to teach Gods born again children , instead you teach them to love one another. You don’t have to teach a child of God not to commit adultery , instead you teach them not to entertain lustful ideas and fantasy in thier heart to keep them on the right path of being faithful
Jesus was teaching salvstion from sin and a new birth into a new life and identity as Gods beloved children , Moses had taught sinners about sin and death. Not killing lying and cheating is t a good image of Gods Will in Christ but loving one another actively and in deed and truth is a good and perfect image of his Will
the works of the law aren’t for the born again children of God it’s for these
“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.”
1 Timothy 1:9-11 KJV
while the gospel teachings are for these
“But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:”
Luke 6:35-37
God is never going to discourage his children from doing good and will always spur us to do the works of salvstion
“The law and the prophets were until John:
since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
Luke 16:16 KJV
“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
Mark 1:14-15 KJV
the gospel is what Jesus preached from his baptism and johns imprisonments forward , it includes his miraculous birth , his life , his ministry , the power of his word to stop the wind and sea , raise the dead , cast out devils , heal the blind and lame and sick , his death burial and resurrection , and is the gospel of the eternal kingdom of God that he preached by the Holy Ghost it’s actually why he was sent
“And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Isaiah . And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.”
Luke 4:17-19, 21 KJV
now we realize there are two perspectives one before his death they received foret the preaching g of the gospel of the kingdom then after learned of his death and resurrection ( already foretold by the prophets ) and we who live after first come to his death and resurrection and then grow into the preaching of the kingdom
so when Paul says this he’s saying the first thing he preached to them was his death and resurrection , beforehand it hadn’t happened yet so it wasn’t yet preached that he died and rose
the gospel is accounted fully in the four gospels including his death burial and resurrection but isn’t exclusive to it infact his death made his word the covenant forever
his bloodshed remitted the old covenant and set his word in place forever over heaven and earth
to sum up the gospel is what’s written in the gospels of Matthew mark
Luke and John no more Or less. It’s the order that’s different before his death and after but the gospel never changes
since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
Luke 16:16 KJV
“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
Mark 1:14-15 KJV
the gospel is what Jesus preached from his baptism and johns imprisonments forward , it includes his miraculous birth , his life , his ministry , the power of his word to stop the wind and sea , raise the dead , cast out devils , heal the blind and lame and sick , his death burial and resurrection , and is the gospel of the eternal kingdom of God that he preached by the Holy Ghost it’s actually why he was sent
“And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Isaiah . And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.”
Luke 4:17-19, 21 KJV
now we realize there are two perspectives one before his death they received foret the preaching g of the gospel of the kingdom then after learned of his death and resurrection ( already foretold by the prophets ) and we who live after first come to his death and resurrection and then grow into the preaching of the kingdom
so when Paul says this he’s saying the first thing he preached to them was his death and resurrection , beforehand it hadn’t happened yet so it wasn’t yet preached that he died and rose
the gospel is accounted fully in the four gospels including his death burial and resurrection but isn’t exclusive to it infact his death made his word the covenant forever
his bloodshed remitted the old covenant and set his word in place forever over heaven and earth
to sum up the gospel is what’s written in the gospels of Matthew mark
Luke and John no more Or less. It’s the order that’s different before his death and after but the gospel never changes
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You seem to believe any man can just conjure up faith in God. Faith in God is a gift given from God. He doesn't decide if our faith is genuine, He knows who's faith is genuine because He's the One who gives us our faith. People can have faith in many things, but no man can truly have Faith in God without Him giving it to us. The Holy Spirit comes automatically with the faith which pulls and draws us to God, making us desire God and desire to please Him. Then the works come flow out of our desire to please God, which comes from the Holy Spirit, which comes from the gift of faith given by God at Regeneration. If you believe man is the author of his own faith then your foundation for your argument is automatically wrong.
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doesn’t this have something to do with faith also ?
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:17 KJV
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
it seems as if when we allow Christs word into our belief it creates faith in us and constructs a belief of the truth and saves us as he teaches and pulls us along the right path but the vehicle seems to be accepting the gospel and a willingness to hear what God has said in truth through Christ
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
Seems as if we can rest here and let Gods word save us and our only place is to accept his word and be saved as it creates us in his image
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:17 KJV
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
it seems as if when we allow Christs word into our belief it creates faith in us and constructs a belief of the truth and saves us as he teaches and pulls us along the right path but the vehicle seems to be accepting the gospel and a willingness to hear what God has said in truth through Christ
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
Seems as if we can rest here and let Gods word save us and our only place is to accept his word and be saved as it creates us in his image
Yes all of that is speaking of faith. Faith is not this one dimensional thing. It runs through everything and it is fueling everything. We can't just look at it in one way. Faith is the beginning of Salvation. Faith fuels us in our continuing sanctification throughout our lives. It's fuels our good works. Faith doesn't stay the same. It deepens. It is also strengthened by God. There are so many facets to faith. I hope I'm staying on topic and answering your question.
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Interesting.
We hear the term that the gospel is good news.
I suppose to understand this good news we need to know what the bad news is.
A bit like this I suppose.
We go to a doctor because we have an issue.
He refers us to a consultant, lots of tests are done then we get the results.
The result is bad news.
Sorry but you have cancer but we are gonna to treat it.
Months down the line we get the good news that we no longer have cancer.
Now for some they don't get that good news and will die as a result.
So the gospel is good news.
The bad news is that we are separated from God as a result of our sin.
In a sense we are sick as a result of sin and dead to God.
This happened when Adam & Eve sinned.
But we know when that happened God had a plan in place already.
I don't want to denigrate God as a doctor but in a sense he is.
The plan already in place before Jesus came to earth.
Genesis 3:15
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”
Mark 1:14-15
Jesus Begins His Galilean Ministry
(Matt. 4:12–17; Luke 4:14, 15)
14 Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”
The good news the gospel is that Jesus came to earth.
He came to fulfill the kingdom of God.
When he said "It is finished" on the cross he fufilled the plan set out in Genesis.
The temple curtain was torn in two.
He died, was buried and rose again for our sin.
The disease of sin that separated of God has now been dealt with.
The good news is that we are reconciled to God through faith and it's the grace of God only that allows this.
It is free, we cannot earn it.
Isaiah 55:1-4
An Invitation to Abundant Life
1 “Ho! Everyone who thirsts,
Come to the waters;
And you who have no money,
Come, buy and eat.
Yes, come, buy wine and milk
Without money and without price.
2 Why do you spend money for what is not bread,
And your wages for what does not satisfy?
Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good,
And let your soul delight itself in abundance.
3 Incline your ear, and come to Me.
Hear, and your soul shall live;
And I will make an everlasting covenant with you—
The sure mercies of David.
4 Indeed I have given him as a witness to the people,
A leader and commander for the people.
Now some reading this even you may think that I am saying just believe and all is ok.
I am not saying that all.
The good news also is the sickness of sin that we have that as a result of faith and the Holy Spirit in us is starting to deal with this cancer.
As we focus on Jesus the healer is treating this.
We want sin less we want to be like Jesus.
And he helps us, the Holy Spirit conforms us the image of Jesus.
(side not here we should never focus on sinning less we should focus on Jesus to sin less, if we just focus on our sin we don't focus Jesus has done for and end up feeling guilty and struggle to come to him).
We seek not to sin but also to walk in works prepared for us before we were born.
The good news
Ephesians 2:1-5
By Grace Through Faith
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
We were dead and now alive in Christ.
Our mortal body will die but we will raised up and live with Christ forever.
We hear the term that the gospel is good news.
I suppose to understand this good news we need to know what the bad news is.
A bit like this I suppose.
We go to a doctor because we have an issue.
He refers us to a consultant, lots of tests are done then we get the results.
The result is bad news.
Sorry but you have cancer but we are gonna to treat it.
Months down the line we get the good news that we no longer have cancer.
Now for some they don't get that good news and will die as a result.
So the gospel is good news.
The bad news is that we are separated from God as a result of our sin.
In a sense we are sick as a result of sin and dead to God.
This happened when Adam & Eve sinned.
But we know when that happened God had a plan in place already.
I don't want to denigrate God as a doctor but in a sense he is.
The plan already in place before Jesus came to earth.
Genesis 3:15
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”
Mark 1:14-15
Jesus Begins His Galilean Ministry
(Matt. 4:12–17; Luke 4:14, 15)
14 Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”
The good news the gospel is that Jesus came to earth.
He came to fulfill the kingdom of God.
When he said "It is finished" on the cross he fufilled the plan set out in Genesis.
The temple curtain was torn in two.
He died, was buried and rose again for our sin.
The disease of sin that separated of God has now been dealt with.
The good news is that we are reconciled to God through faith and it's the grace of God only that allows this.
It is free, we cannot earn it.
Isaiah 55:1-4
An Invitation to Abundant Life
1 “Ho! Everyone who thirsts,
Come to the waters;
And you who have no money,
Come, buy and eat.
Yes, come, buy wine and milk
Without money and without price.
2 Why do you spend money for what is not bread,
And your wages for what does not satisfy?
Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good,
And let your soul delight itself in abundance.
3 Incline your ear, and come to Me.
Hear, and your soul shall live;
And I will make an everlasting covenant with you—
The sure mercies of David.
4 Indeed I have given him as a witness to the people,
A leader and commander for the people.
Now some reading this even you may think that I am saying just believe and all is ok.
I am not saying that all.
The good news also is the sickness of sin that we have that as a result of faith and the Holy Spirit in us is starting to deal with this cancer.
As we focus on Jesus the healer is treating this.
We want sin less we want to be like Jesus.
And he helps us, the Holy Spirit conforms us the image of Jesus.
(side not here we should never focus on sinning less we should focus on Jesus to sin less, if we just focus on our sin we don't focus Jesus has done for and end up feeling guilty and struggle to come to him).
We seek not to sin but also to walk in works prepared for us before we were born.
The good news
Ephesians 2:1-5
By Grace Through Faith
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
We were dead and now alive in Christ.
Our mortal body will die but we will raised up and live with Christ forever.
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I totally agree it was just a question to get you to elaborate a bit wasn’t a disagreement I enjoyed your post and wanted to provoke a bit more from you because of interest in my spirit
This principle of “growing faith” also allows for a young believer not to be judged by the standards of an elder or teacher who is more Informed. So that each is judged and held accountable for thier faith created in the gospel and not another’s measure of faith because they have received and understood more than the younger believer who
Knows and understands less
it removes the jidgement of one believer from others and turns it towards our own self to keep In step with the amount of faith we have grown into
a young child isn’t held to the standard of an adult or even a teen , but an elder man isn’t able to be judged as a young child either and so we walk by the growing faith within each of us and the water and rain comes from hearing the gospel as we grow so do our ears capability of hearing and receiving faith
Thanks for taking time to elaborate I agree more than I had thought I already did
This principle of “growing faith” also allows for a young believer not to be judged by the standards of an elder or teacher who is more Informed. So that each is judged and held accountable for thier faith created in the gospel and not another’s measure of faith because they have received and understood more than the younger believer who
Knows and understands less
it removes the jidgement of one believer from others and turns it towards our own self to keep In step with the amount of faith we have grown into
a young child isn’t held to the standard of an adult or even a teen , but an elder man isn’t able to be judged as a young child either and so we walk by the growing faith within each of us and the water and rain comes from hearing the gospel as we grow so do our ears capability of hearing and receiving faith
Thanks for taking time to elaborate I agree more than I had thought I already did
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I understand what you are saying I think the condition is to hear Christs word the good news is that the time has come for the fulfillment of all the prophets had foretold of the messiah coming to give us judgement again that we lost in the beginning
think of how good of news this is to sinners condemned to death
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
do you see how good that doctrine is ? And how full of grace it is ? How dofferent from the law it is ? How it’s actually a promise of eternal Life ?
works come when we do that and as we are able to hear and bear it we become accountable for it from faith to faith so when I was a child l I knew was that Jesus died for my sins and rose up and was now in heaven
and my faith was complete there was nothing to do. Grace had made me whole but then as I grew a bit , as children do , I learned more and I became more responsible for my deeds that I was doing wrong , and also hearing about what I was meant to do that was right according to Jesus who does for my sins. As we grow up in Christ our accountability grows also according to what we learn
no one else is held to what I know but I surely am. Because ultimately this is going to be our judgement
“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
John 12:48-50 KJV
I’m not disputing grace im saying it’s found in believing the gospel the word of God Jesus preached. And saying faith is going to do the works because of belief
Noah also received grace and was elected by God for salvation
“But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.”
Genesis 6:8 KJV
this doesn’t mean Noah is now saved from the flood but grace did this for him ot spoke the truth of the coming flood so he was informed and told him what to do so grace led here
“And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.”
Genesis 6:13-14 KJV
That creates faith in Noah he had heard the word of God
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:17 KJV
now Noah’s only response was belief
“Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.”
Genesis 6:22 KJV
that’s the process of being saved by grace through faith and is the righteousness of faith we inherit if we were to sin it up in the New Testament as an example it would sound like this
“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
Hebrews 11:7 KJV
Noah’s works were a result of his correct belief based on what God had told him was coming and what to do to be saved
I assure you Noah wasn’t boasting about his ark but was grateful in every way tonthe lord for telling him the truth so he could be saved I think tha our place to hear the gospel and let it into our belief and through that we’re going to be saved but if we reject his word there is no faith to be had and he does teach us like Noah what to do it’s only a matter of if we believe him or not
it’s grace for sure but having faith doesn’t eliminate the re the at tells us what to do faith actually creates an understanding of what to do me does t make us into boasters but makes us grateful to the lord for telling us about the coming wrath and how to escape it
think of how good of news this is to sinners condemned to death
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
do you see how good that doctrine is ? And how full of grace it is ? How dofferent from the law it is ? How it’s actually a promise of eternal Life ?
works come when we do that and as we are able to hear and bear it we become accountable for it from faith to faith so when I was a child l I knew was that Jesus died for my sins and rose up and was now in heaven
and my faith was complete there was nothing to do. Grace had made me whole but then as I grew a bit , as children do , I learned more and I became more responsible for my deeds that I was doing wrong , and also hearing about what I was meant to do that was right according to Jesus who does for my sins. As we grow up in Christ our accountability grows also according to what we learn
no one else is held to what I know but I surely am. Because ultimately this is going to be our judgement
“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
John 12:48-50 KJV
I’m not disputing grace im saying it’s found in believing the gospel the word of God Jesus preached. And saying faith is going to do the works because of belief
Noah also received grace and was elected by God for salvation
“But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.”
Genesis 6:8 KJV
this doesn’t mean Noah is now saved from the flood but grace did this for him ot spoke the truth of the coming flood so he was informed and told him what to do so grace led here
“And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.”
Genesis 6:13-14 KJV
That creates faith in Noah he had heard the word of God
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:17 KJV
now Noah’s only response was belief
“Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.”
Genesis 6:22 KJV
that’s the process of being saved by grace through faith and is the righteousness of faith we inherit if we were to sin it up in the New Testament as an example it would sound like this
“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
Hebrews 11:7 KJV
Noah’s works were a result of his correct belief based on what God had told him was coming and what to do to be saved
I assure you Noah wasn’t boasting about his ark but was grateful in every way tonthe lord for telling him the truth so he could be saved I think tha our place to hear the gospel and let it into our belief and through that we’re going to be saved but if we reject his word there is no faith to be had and he does teach us like Noah what to do it’s only a matter of if we believe him or not
it’s grace for sure but having faith doesn’t eliminate the re the at tells us what to do faith actually creates an understanding of what to do me does t make us into boasters but makes us grateful to the lord for telling us about the coming wrath and how to escape it
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