Eternal Security: What do you do with James 2?

what do you mean "justify"? Do you mean what works justify a person's salvation? none. It is only through faith and the grace of God we are saved. As mentioned before, I believe works SHOW you are saved. They do not justify you nor save you. As for the second part of your question, unbelievers do good works every day! But they do not have saving faith and work in vain.

It isn’t actually contradictory

this

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if we don’t allow for the rest of scripture makes it seem like a contradiction with this

“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:21-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

a phrase or two from Paul selectively offered doesn’t omit the rest of scripture but leads to a fuller understanding when we allow it all in. James is acceptable as well as Paul John and Peter

once we believe we’re meant to be in this section hearing this

“This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭3:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

salvstion for man is always because of Gods grace and through faith faith however doesn’t omit works and doesn’t contradict doing the things God has said will save us it’s the means by which we do those things

I find the thief who was saved interesting in that we don’t know his works other than he had sinned and was put to death for them.

many would say he wasn’t baptized but we actually don’t know that we know he wasn’t baptized on the cross but it’s very possible he was baptized here

“And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬


We know he confessed his sins on the cross , but we have no clue about his life’s work we know he was a sinner but that’s true of all of us how did he treat the poor and neglected of society ? Did he judge others and refuse to forgive them ? Was he looking with list at others ?

he is a bit of a mystery because we know so little of his life only the moment of his death is sure and the eternal life that followed

“We are declared righteous by faith and as a result works will follow.”

that’s James point but he adds what many won’t acknowledge that if the works don’t come faith can’t save

What do you do with these scriptures?

Ignore them?
Pretend they don't exist?
Are the mistranslated or misunderstood?
Should James be removed from the canon?

How do works show you are saved if unbelievers do good works also?

I have had this kind of question as well. One may do good works but also not believe in the gospel.

It's contradictory to teach that we are saved by faith AND WORKS when God's word clearly states we are saved by grace through faith, NOT WORKS. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

That salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS is not hard to understand. It's just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT.

I see that you also teach salvation by faith AND WORKS through your misinterpretation of James 2:21-24.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac on the altar recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

Faith "made perfect or complete" by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

The scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. *Paul could not have been any clearer.*

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness. For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. (Matthew 12:34)

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." That is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

It's not about omitting or negating the rest of scripture and we must properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine. The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 4:5-6;; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

Yes, maintain good works but not for the purpose of maintaining salvation. From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS.

Absolutely! This is what we are saved FOR and NOT BY. (Ephesians 2:8-10; 1 John 3:11) We could never produce enough good works to earn or merit our salvation.

Ephesians 2:10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Good works are what we are saved FOR and NOT BY.

Sounds like you are saying that the thief on the cross may have been saved before he was on the cross.

Are you saying that If works don’t come as a result of salvation It’s because they were never saved?

1. That's true.
2. I still think in any case he was talking about works as under the law, in the broadest sense- the conscience is a law in itself for those without the law.
3. I'm pretty sure Paul isn't talking about Baptism.

"Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on that of faith.
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law"

You can't boast about anything you do in Christ, anyway, because it's your reasonable service. Anyone saved by the works of the law could boast, because they were super-duper holy, but nobody can boast, because nobody can keep the law.

The idea that you are taking any credit away from God doesn't make sense to me, because nothing would matter if Jesus didn't do his work. He still gets all the Glory. We just believe in what he did, and doing what he says demonstrates that belief.

4) Well, James says that his offering of Issac fullfilled the scripture that said he believed God and was accredited with righteousness. Maybe I'm reading that wrong, but I'm not gonna argue with James.

I’m saying that up front we need to accept the gospel and not eliminate it because of a few isolated verses from Paul that if the context is removed can be made to sound like anything

What is the gospel?

But isn't God the One who ultimately decides if our faith is genuine. We can do good works toward our fellows all day long but if they aren't accompanied by faith toward God He doesn't recognize them. Why should we need to prove our faith to another person when it's God who weighs the heart? Something here doesn't pass the smell test.

You seem to believe any man can just conjure up faith in God. Faith in God is a gift given from God. He doesn't decide if our faith is genuine, He knows who's faith is genuine because He's the One who gives us our faith. People can have faith in many things, but no man can truly have Faith in God without Him giving it to us. The Holy Spirit comes automatically with the faith which pulls and draws us to God, making us desire God and desire to please Him. Then the works come flow out of our desire to please God, which comes from the Holy Spirit, which comes from the gift of faith given by God at Regeneration. If you believe man is the author of his own faith then your foundation for your argument is automatically wrong.

doesn’t this have something to do with faith also ?

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it seems as if when we allow Christs word into our belief it creates faith in us and constructs a belief of the truth and saves us as he teaches and pulls us along the right path but the vehicle seems to be accepting the gospel and a willingness to hear what God has said in truth through Christ


“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Seems as if we can rest here and let Gods word save us and our only place is to accept his word and be saved as it creates us in his image

“The law and the prophets were until John:

since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the gospel is what Jesus preached from his baptism and johns imprisonments forward , it includes his miraculous birth , his life , his ministry , the power of his word to stop the wind and sea , raise the dead , cast out devils , heal the blind and lame and sick , his death burial and resurrection , and is the gospel of the eternal kingdom of God that he preached by the Holy Ghost it’s actually why he was sent

“And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Isaiah . And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭4:17-19, 21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

now we realize there are two perspectives one before his death they received foret the preaching g of the gospel of the kingdom then after learned of his death and resurrection ( already foretold by the prophets ) and we who live after first come to his death and resurrection and then grow into the preaching of the kingdom

so when Paul says this he’s saying the first thing he preached to them was his death and resurrection , beforehand it hadn’t happened yet so it wasn’t yet preached that he died and rose

the gospel is accounted fully in the four gospels including his death burial and resurrection but isn’t exclusive to it infact his death made his word the covenant forever

his bloodshed remitted the old covenant and set his word in place forever over heaven and earth

to sum up the gospel is what’s written in the gospels of Matthew mark
Luke and John no more Or less. It’s the order that’s different before his death and after but the gospel never changes

Yes all of that is speaking of faith. Faith is not this one dimensional thing. It runs through everything and it is fueling everything. We can't just look at it in one way. Faith is the beginning of Salvation. Faith fuels us in our continuing sanctification throughout our lives. It's fuels our good works. Faith doesn't stay the same. It deepens. It is also strengthened by God. There are so many facets to faith. I hope I'm staying on topic and answering your question.

Interesting.

We hear the term that the gospel is good news.
I suppose to understand this good news we need to know what the bad news is.

A bit like this I suppose.
We go to a doctor because we have an issue.
He refers us to a consultant, lots of tests are done then we get the results.
The result is bad news.
Sorry but you have cancer but we are gonna to treat it.
Months down the line we get the good news that we no longer have cancer.

Now for some they don't get that good news and will die as a result.

So the gospel is good news.

The bad news is that we are separated from God as a result of our sin.
In a sense we are sick as a result of sin and dead to God.

This happened when Adam & Eve sinned.
But we know when that happened God had a plan in place already.
I don't want to denigrate God as a doctor but in a sense he is.

The plan already in place before Jesus came to earth.

Genesis 3:15
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

Mark 1:14-15

Jesus Begins His Galilean Ministry
(Matt. 4:12–17; Luke 4:14, 15)
14 Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”

The good news the gospel is that Jesus came to earth.
He came to fulfill the kingdom of God.
When he said "It is finished" on the cross he fufilled the plan set out in Genesis.
The temple curtain was torn in two.
He died, was buried and rose again for our sin.
The disease of sin that separated of God has now been dealt with.

The good news is that we are reconciled to God through faith and it's the grace of God only that allows this.

It is free, we cannot earn it.

Isaiah 55:1-4

An Invitation to Abundant Life
1 “Ho! Everyone who thirsts,
Come to the waters;
And you who have no money,
Come, buy and eat.
Yes, come, buy wine and milk
Without money and without price.
2 Why do you spend money for what is not bread,
And your wages for what does not satisfy?
Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good,
And let your soul delight itself in abundance.
3 Incline your ear, and come to Me.
Hear, and your soul shall live;
And I will make an everlasting covenant with you—
The sure mercies of David.
4 Indeed I have given him as a witness to the people,
A leader and commander for the people.

Now some reading this even you may think that I am saying just believe and all is ok.
I am not saying that all.

The good news also is the sickness of sin that we have that as a result of faith and the Holy Spirit in us is starting to deal with this cancer.
As we focus on Jesus the healer is treating this.
We want sin less we want to be like Jesus.
And he helps us, the Holy Spirit conforms us the image of Jesus.
(side not here we should never focus on sinning less we should focus on Jesus to sin less, if we just focus on our sin we don't focus Jesus has done for and end up feeling guilty and struggle to come to him).

We seek not to sin but also to walk in works prepared for us before we were born.

The good news

Ephesians 2:1-5

By Grace Through Faith
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

We were dead and now alive in Christ.

Our mortal body will die but we will raised up and live with Christ forever.

I understand what you are saying I think the condition is to hear Christs word the good news is that the time has come for the fulfillment of all the prophets had foretold of the messiah coming to give us judgement again that we lost in the beginning

think of how good of news this is to sinners condemned to death

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

do you see how good that doctrine is ? And how full of grace it is ? How dofferent from the law it is ? How it’s actually a promise of eternal Life ?

works come when we do that and as we are able to hear and bear it we become accountable for it from faith to faith so when I was a child l I knew was that Jesus died for my sins and rose up and was now in heaven

and my faith was complete there was nothing to do. Grace had made me whole but then as I grew a bit , as children do , I learned more and I became more responsible for my deeds that I was doing wrong , and also hearing about what I was meant to do that was right according to Jesus who does for my sins. As we grow up in Christ our accountability grows also according to what we learn

no one else is held to what I know but I surely am. Because ultimately this is going to be our judgement

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’m not disputing grace im saying it’s found in believing the gospel the word of God Jesus preached. And saying faith is going to do the works because of belief

Noah also received grace and was elected by God for salvation

“But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this doesn’t mean Noah is now saved from the flood but grace did this for him ot spoke the truth of the coming flood so he was informed and told him what to do so grace led here

“And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That creates faith in Noah he had heard the word of God

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

now Noah’s only response was belief

“Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s the process of being saved by grace through faith and is the righteousness of faith we inherit if we were to sin it up in the New Testament as an example it would sound like this

“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Noah’s works were a result of his correct belief based on what God had told him was coming and what to do to be saved

I assure you Noah wasn’t boasting about his ark but was grateful in every way tonthe lord for telling him the truth so he could be saved I think tha our place to hear the gospel and let it into our belief and through that we’re going to be saved but if we reject his word there is no faith to be had and he does teach us like Noah what to do it’s only a matter of if we believe him or not

it’s grace for sure but having faith doesn’t eliminate the re the at tells us what to do faith actually creates an understanding of what to do me does t make us into boasters but makes us grateful to the lord for telling us about the coming wrath and how to escape it