Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

Let me ask you point blank: Is confession a work?

The word belief in Greek is pistis, which means confidence or trust.

They fully believe in God. They have total faith in Him, but they are diametrically opposed to Him and want nothing of goodness or righteousness. That’s why they do not repent and change even though they know full well that Christ is the Messiah, and fully capable of redeeming or destroying them.

I would think so, meaning that God and man are involved with salvation. In Acts, they are often asked “What must I do… “ and the apostle tells them what “to do”.

I never heard It like that,I think I like your Interpretatio.Falling from grace was to the people during the law.

I was thinking that faith without works was only dead to men but I think I’m starting to understand what better why faith without works Is also dead to GOD and why salvation Involves GOD AND man.

And man?

I am confused by this thinking

What can man do that would cause God to forgive one sin, et alone the many sins we have are and will commit?

That's the question I was asking In the poll and most of the community believes that faith WITHOUT WORKS Is dead "to GOD."

And man?

I am confused by this thinking

What can man do that would cause God to forgive one sin, et alone the many sins we have are and will commit?

That's the question I was asking In the poll and most of the community believes that faith WITHOUT WORKS Is dead "to GOD."

Yet works have no part in salvation otherwise grace is null and void

I can see why mindreader said that GOD and man are Involved In the salvation process If you believe that faith alone without doing any works Is dead to GOD then you would have to be In agreement that work Is needed In the salvation process but now you are saying that man Is not Involved In the salvation process.I'm confused.Some say that confession Is a spiritual work so then that's why faith Without works Is dead to GOD although I thought confession was the same as repentance.

"Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up."—Galatians 6:7-9

Paul's not addressing unbelievers here but believers. And it has nothing to do with rewards or crowns. The group that sows to the Spirit inherits eternal life; the other group reaps corruption, or destruction. Why would he say not to give up? A person can't can't quit or give up on something they never possessed.

I can already hear the wheels churning as you look for ways to wiggle around this, so let's hear it.

I don’t see John 10:28 as a proof text for OSAS. I think it is important to look at the preceding verses in John 10:26-27 to see how the Lord holds us accountable in our relationship with Him. I understand that some who believe in OSAS state that if a sheep is no longer following Christ, that means they believe they were never a true sheep to begin with.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. (So the sheep of Christ believe in Him)
27 MY SHEEP hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (the sheep also hear His voice and follow Him)
28 And I give unto them (who is this “them”? It is the same sheep who believe in Jesus, hear His voice and follow Him) eternal life (1st promise); and they shall never perish (2nd promise), neither shall any man pluckthem out of my hand (3rd promise).
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.These three promises are given, as clearly shown, to the sheep who:

believe in Him
know Him (John 10:14)
hear His voice
follow Him


So, the OSAS doctrine is that God is greater than all and "no man" can pluck us out of his hand. According to this doctrine "No man" would include us and our own will. As Christians, we have to know Him, hear His voice, and follow Him as our salvation is conditional. It is a free gift that can be rejected. I believe it possible for a born again Christian to fall out of the Spirit of God, and then continue on rejecting the Lord unto death.

Calvinists/Reformed perhaps don't see the possibility of God laying down two alternatives, pointing out the eternal and unchangeable consequences of each, and giving a person the choice, especially when God's will favors one alternative and abhors the other.

Calvinists argue that if a person can possibly choose the alternative that God does not wish, then that person's will can prevail over God's will, so the will of that person is the sovereign will, and God's will is subject to that person's own will.

This view overlooks the fact that our Lord himself was tempted and could have disobeyed his Father's will. He said that he would yield to his Father's will; but he also said that he could call upon his Father for twelve legions of angels to escape the cross —even though the Father’s will, written in prophecy, would then fail to be fulfilled (Matthew 26:39,53).

I see why you mention John 5:24. The natural question that follows is, “what does it mean to believe in Jesus?” To me, salvation is conditional. I think the believer must continue to repent when he/she falls from grace, as I do not think God's grace is irresistible. I do think that a Christian can stop believing in Jesus at anytime throughout the course of their life. They do this by returning to unrepentant and willful sin. It is my view that it is possible for a born again Christian to fall away and become one of the lost the Lord mentioned in Matthew 7:21-23, or Galatians 5:19-21.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

19Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, cdivisions, 21envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that dthose who do2 such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


There is of course the case of Judas, a born again follower losing his salvation. He was given the power to cast out devils in the sixth chapter of Mark. 7 And He (Jesus) called unto him the twelve (which obviously include Judas), and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them POWER over unclean spirits (so Judas Iscariot was given power over unclean Spirits);


13 And they CAST OUT MANY DEVILS (and using the power given by the Lord, Judas Iscariot whom was sent as one of the twelve cast out many devils), and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them. Judas was given the Power of the Holy Ghost which enabled him to cast out many devils. That is an example of someone who has received the Holy Spirit and has been born again. Judas was saved at that time and one of the sheep the Father gave Jesus in John 17:12. Jesus betrayed the Lord so that the Word of God would be fulfilled.

There is also the case of Simon the Sorcerer. Some Arminians point out this example to demonstrate the possibility of salvation being lost. Although there is no mention of Simon losing his salvation, Peter does mention to him he is on the way to perdition if he does not repent. To me, this demonstrates how a Christian should continue to ask the Lord for forgiveness after a transgression is committed. If a Christian can fall from grace by trusting in His own righteousness, I don't see why a Christian can't fall from grace by being overcome by unrepentant sin. I don't see why a Christian can't leave the Spirit of God and disobey Him, continuing on in unrepentant sin of his/her own free will.


Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.13 Then SIMON HIMSELF BELIEVED ALSO: and when he was BAPTIZED, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

The information above, which Luke writes down for us in Acts, is that Simon believed and was baptized. That will absolutely make the reader understand Simon was saved. Or else Luke would have totally confused us with his information about Simon.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Peter tells Simon that he is on the way to perdition and that he needs to repent so that God can forgive him for his wicked acts. Peter tells Simon that his heart is not right, and of course that means he couldn’t have been “saved” (spiritually alive) during this particular time.

Acts 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.

The OSAS debate mostly involves these four theological questions. "Can a Christian fall from grace?" Is God's grace irresistible? Is man totally depraved? Is it possible for a Christian to return to willful and unrepentant sin and lose salvation? I am no theologian, but I can understand why this debate continues on.

I reject all of TULIP but understand why many of my fellow Christians accept those doctrines. It is my view that man is depraved, not totally depraved. Total depravity is of course the foundational doctrine upon which the other five points of Calvinism stand. Here are three arguments against that doctrine for anyone who is interested in reading them. http://lhim.org/blog/2014/02/06/three-arguments-against-total-depravity/. I know that most all of my brothers and sisters in the Lord who hold to OSAS are probably already aware of this.

yep

These are characteristics of those who have been saved by faith.

Not requirements

That would make people having to earn salvation. Which no one can do

Hi Evmur,

I understand what you are saying. The 'church' is saved in a different manner than the 'sheep'. Now you are playing a slight of hand with words when you say this: "it is against all scripture to believe the church is saved by works or deeds, we are saved by grace. Therefore these who do gain an inheritance because of deeds cannot be the church."

What you really mean is that there are two ways to salvation one by grace, and one by works deeds/merit.

You say:

Church/brethern = saved by grace

Sheep (wider mercy) = saved by deeds -by their own merit. (and not just the sheep anyone who does a good work, you said this :



The whole bible states there is only one way of salvation and that is By grace, through faith and in Christ alone. Good deeds or merit will never save anyone. I'm afraid your "wider mercy", two ways of salvation model does not fit within the teaching of scripture nor orthodoxy.




This is not true Evmur, you have taken a classic dispensational view and added your liberal wider mercy view, The classic dispensationalist never say the sheep are saved by their deeds/their own merit. In fact they say the sheep are saved by grace through, faith in Christ!


Do you remember saying this?




My advice is for you to go and actually read what Spurgeon said.. He certainly wouldn't be agreeing with you. Scriptural truth (revelation) does not move on... "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." (Heb 13:8). God does not change and neither does his word.

And, since you say evangelicals have not answered your liberal wider mercy view let me leave with you with what (dispensational) evangelicals actually say please take note this refutes your liberalism:

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"In the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, we are looking at man redeemed and saved, and man condemned and lost. A casual reading seems to suggest that salvation is the result of good works. The “sheep” acted charitably, giving food, drink, and clothing to the needy. The “goats” showed no charity. This seems to result in salvation for the sheep and damnation for the goats.

However, Scripture does not contradict itself, and the Bible clearly and repeatedly teaches that salvation is by faith through the grace of God and not by our good works (see John 1:12; Acts 15:11; Romans 3:22-24; Romans 4:4-8; Romans 7:24-25; Romans 8:12; Galatians 3:6-9; and Ephesians 2:8-10). In fact, Jesus Himself makes it clear in the parable that the salvation of the “sheep” is not based on their works—their inheritance was theirs “since the creation of the world” (Matthew 25:34), long before they could ever do any good works!

The good works mentioned in the parable are not the cause of salvation but the effect of salvation. As Christians we become like Christ (see Romans 8:29; 2 Corinthians 3:18; and Colossians 2:6-7). Galatians 5:22 tells us that the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self-control. Good works in a Christian’s life are the direct overflow of these traits, and are only acceptable to God because of the relationship that exists between servant and Master, the saved and their Savior, the sheep and their Shepherd (see Ephesians 2:10).

The core message of the Parable of the Sheep and Goats is that God’s people will love others. Good works will result from our relationship to the Shepherd. Followers of Christ will treat others with kindness, serving them as if they were serving Christ Himself. The unregenerate live in the opposite manner. While “goats” can indeed perform acts of kindness and charity, their hearts are not right with God, and their actions are not for the right purpose – to honor and worship God. -https://www.gotquestions.org/parable-sheep-goats.html "
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Your doing a disservice to the Gospel paid at great cost and you are misrepresenting dispensationalists. (I'm not even a dispensationalists).

I am not saying what Spurgeon or what the dispensationalist say.

I'm saying what the scripture says, what it actually says not what your various commentators [who you quote] says it means.

First the scripture says the church does not figure in the last judgement, we have John says "passed from judgement to life" How CAN we be judged? Jesus was judged in our place aye and condemned and executed in our place.

No no our place in the last judgement Paul teaches is to judge the world, "God will bring us with when He comes to judge ..."

How will we judge the world?

Matthew 25 shows us
"Inasmuch as ye did it to one of the least of these My brethren ye did it to Me..."

Who are the church? the sheeps? or is it those whom He calls "these My brethren"?

The answer is as plain as the nose on your face

The problem started with Jerome who translated the ancient scripts into latin, see now the church had abandoned the doctrine concerning the 1, 000 year reign so he takes no cognition of the fact the the church had been raptured. You DO believe the resurrection is in stages don't you?

don't you believe that the resurrection is first Christ is raised, then those who are Christ's at His coming [already 2, 000 years apart] The resurrection comes first and then the judgement, not the other way around. John in Revelations shows that the resurrection is divided into the first resurrection "happy and holy is he who has part in the first resurrect for the 2nd death can have no power over them"

Then we have the 1, 000 years. Then we have the second and general resurrection unto judgement. And according to John they are judged according to their deeds.

Paul teaches exactly the same doctrine in 1. Corinthians . 15.
First Christ has been raised
Then they who are in Christ at His coming
Then comes the end
for He must first reign until all His enemies are put under His feet.

Jerome takes no cognition of all this so when he sees "The King will come on that day and all His holy ones with Him" he translates holy ones as holy angels, the word is sacredos, it can mean either holy angels or it can mean saints. I say it is saints in line with Paul.

It is the saints who the King refers to "as these My brethren"

That makes for a massively wider mercy than is generally taught in Evangelicalism.

I will leave you to your liberal views Evmur.