Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[seed_time_harvest]

Let me ask you point blank: Is confession a work?

Some say that the thief on the cross did this as you say non-work.

 

[phil36]

The word belief in Greek is pistis, which means confidence or trust.

They fully believe in God. They have total faith in Him, but they are diametrically opposed to Him and want nothing of goodness or righteousness. That’s why they do not repent and change even though they know full well that Christ is the Messiah, and fully capable of redeeming or destroying them.

They have total faith in Him would this be the same total faith Christians have but we don't resist in anger?

 

[seed_time_harvest]

I would think so, meaning that God and man are involved with salvation. In Acts, they are often asked “What must I do… “ and the apostle tells them what “to do”.

I was thinking that faith without works was only dead to men but I think I’m starting to understand what better why faith without works Is also dead to GOD and why salvation Involves GOD AND man.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I never heard It like that,I think I like your Interpretatio.Falling from grace was to the people during the law.

Allen from Grace I think just hat it means

A person who has grace in their hands, or they are riding on grace on the way to finding Christ to be saved. And returns to the law has fallen from that grace which could have saved them.

They did not fall from salvation. Their faith had always been in the law. Which is why they returned. They tried the christian thing out. Decided they trusted in the law more. And returned to it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I was thinking that faith without works was only dead to men but I think I’m starting to understand what better why faith without works Is also dead to GOD and why salvation Involves GOD AND man.

And man?

I am confused by this thinking

What can man do that would cause God to forgive one sin, et alone the many sins we have are and will commit?

 

[seed_time_harvest]

And man?

I am confused by this thinking

What can man do that would cause God to forgive one sin, et alone the many sins we have are and will commit?

That's the question I was asking In the poll and most of the community believes that faith WITHOUT WORKS Is dead "to GOD."

 

[seed_time_harvest]

That's the question I was asking In the poll and most of the community believes that faith WITHOUT WORKS Is dead "to GOD."

I was thinking about when the user "mindreader asked Phil If he thought confession was a work and so I figured that that's what a non work meant and In that way I see what mindreader meant by man and GOD are Involved In salvation

 

[Blade]

So let me ask why is it just "The OSAS interpretation" thats wrong? Can not your "interpretation" be wrong? From the start you said "interpretation". One would think that door swings both ways.. maybe not. Not the best footing here. Hmm who would put those thoughts in my head? Not God.. and says what He gives He never takes back.. yet something NEW as in spirit, new man, new creation wow we don't have to be a god to give back, not want something only a GOD created. Can't see it yet.. just simple words or not doing some works and voided out.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

And man?

I am confused by this thinking

What can man do that would cause God to forgive one sin, et alone the many sins we have are and will commit?

I was thinking about when the user "mindreader asked Phil If he thought confession was a work and so I figured that that's what a non work meant and In that way I see what mindreader meant by man and GOD are Involved In salvation

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That's the question I was asking In the poll and most of the community believes that faith WITHOUT WORKS Is dead "to GOD."

Yet works have no part in salvation otherwise grace is null and void

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Yet works have no part in salvation otherwise grace is null and void

I can see why mindreader said that GOD and man are Involved In the salvation process If you believe that faith alone without doing any works Is dead to GOD then you would have to be In agreement that work Is needed In the salvation process but now you are saying that man Is not Involved In the salvation process.I'm confused.Some say that confession Is a spiritual work so then that's why faith Without works Is dead to GOD although I thought confession was the same as repentance.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I can see why mindreader said that GOD and man are Involved In the salvation process If you believe that faith alone without doing any works Is dead to GOD then you would have to be In agreement that work Is needed In the salvation process but now you are saying that man Is not Involved In the salvation process.I'm confused.Some say that confession Is a spiritual work so then that's why faith Without works Is dead to GOD although I thought confession was the same as repentance.

I can not be in agreement, Because I would have to admit that we are saved BY WORKS, and not by faith. I would have to believe that I am saved initially in the spirit (faith) but I must perfect that salvation in the flesh (by works) and according to paul. I would be a fool.

Abraham was saved the moment he believed in God. At that Moment, He was given the righteousness of Christ. He was adopted as Gods son. He was given eternal life. And his eternal destination was set in stone.

After this event, Abraham lived, He committed many sins, Many sins which are prety severe (He committed adultry with his maid, He lied about his wife calling her his sister due to lack of faith, He laughed at God.) But he also did many works, Like offering his son to God in faith that God could rise him from the dead. Because he believed in Gods promise. That through THIS child would become a great nation.

David too was called a man after Gods own Heart. Somewhere as a child he too believed God and was accounted as righteous. We too see his sin (the worse being adultry, some could say rape and murder) yet we also see his many great works.

Niether one of these men were saved by works, They did not cooperate or help God save them by their works. They were saved by their faith.

Their faith, Being living, not only saved them, But caused them to do these works. But they were not perfect men, They commited sins that I sadly would say if anyone in todays church saw men today do what these men did they would claim they could not be saved, or at the least lost their salvation because of their sins.

Confession, repentance faith is not a work. Because you can not BOAST of those things.

Its like this. You are drowning because you fell off a ship during a storm. You have no hope of saving yourself. You will die if you are not rescued (the word saved in scripture comes from the greek soso, which means to be rescued). Now a rescue swim=mre is sent to try to rescue or save you. You can not help them, you MUST sit still and ALLOW him to rescue you. Otherwise you put both of your lives in danger.

So in the end, The person sent to rescue you succeeds, He brings you back to the ship and they take you back to dry land.

While you began to try to save yourself. You repented and decided your unable. Your in a hopeless situation. When hope is sent your way, You decide to trust this person. Because you know they are trustworthy, And you allow him to rescue you. When you get to land. Your not going to BOAST of saving yourself. Your going to BOAST in the person who was trained to save your life who did what they were sent to do. You did not work to save yourself because you repented and went against nature to save yourself and allowed a stranger to save you. He saved you

Much the same. The tax collector. He repented and was so broken he got on his knees unable to even look up and begged God to have mercy on him. And jesus said he went home saved.

He could not boast of saving himself by his works. His repentance and faith was in someone who showed themself to him, who drew him to God, as he became poor in spirit (spiritually bankrupt) and and because of That God showed him mercy and grace and he entered the kingdom of God.

He was justified God said, He was saved, He was secure in christ Because Christ saved him.

The only way we can not be secure in christ is if we think we have to do something. In this case, Our hope is in our works, and our ability to stop sin, Do works, or whatever we think we must do. In order to maintain salvation. Our faith is not in God, it is in self.

 

[rayzor]

"Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up."—Galatians 6:7-9

Paul's not addressing unbelievers here but believers. And it has nothing to do with rewards or crowns. The group that sows to the Spirit inherits eternal life; the other group reaps corruption, or destruction. Why would he say not to give up? A person can't can't quit or give up on something they never possessed.

I can already hear the wheels churning as you look for ways to wiggle around this, so let's hear it.

It's abstract but u can c that in the verse via the experience of other vs.more of a totality Understading. Then just individual context

 

[Gardenias]

I don’t see John 10:28 as a proof text for OSAS. I think it is important to look at the preceding verses in John 10:26-27 to see how the Lord holds us accountable in our relationship with Him. I understand that some who believe in OSAS state that if a sheep is no longer following Christ, that means they believe they were never a true sheep to begin with.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. (So the sheep of Christ believe in Him)
27 MY SHEEP hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (the sheep also hear His voice and follow Him)
28 And I give unto them (who is this “them”? It is the same sheep who believe in Jesus, hear His voice and follow Him) eternal life (1st promise); and they shall never perish (2nd promise), neither shall any man pluckthem out of my hand (3rd promise).
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.These three promises are given, as clearly shown, to the sheep who:

believe in Him
know Him (John 10:14)
hear His voice
follow Him


So, the OSAS doctrine is that God is greater than all and "no man" can pluck us out of his hand. According to this doctrine "No man" would include us and our own will. As Christians, we have to know Him, hear His voice, and follow Him as our salvation is conditional. It is a free gift that can be rejected. I believe it possible for a born again Christian to fall out of the Spirit of God, and then continue on rejecting the Lord unto death.

Calvinists/Reformed perhaps don't see the possibility of God laying down two alternatives, pointing out the eternal and unchangeable consequences of each, and giving a person the choice, especially when God's will favors one alternative and abhors the other.

Calvinists argue that if a person can possibly choose the alternative that God does not wish, then that person's will can prevail over God's will, so the will of that person is the sovereign will, and God's will is subject to that person's own will.

This view overlooks the fact that our Lord himself was tempted and could have disobeyed his Father's will. He said that he would yield to his Father's will; but he also said that he could call upon his Father for twelve legions of angels to escape the cross —even though the Father’s will, written in prophecy, would then fail to be fulfilled (Matthew 26:39,53).

I see why you mention John 5:24. The natural question that follows is, “what does it mean to believe in Jesus?” To me, salvation is conditional. I think the believer must continue to repent when he/she falls from grace, as I do not think God's grace is irresistible. I do think that a Christian can stop believing in Jesus at anytime throughout the course of their life. They do this by returning to unrepentant and willful sin. It is my view that it is possible for a born again Christian to fall away and become one of the lost the Lord mentioned in Matthew 7:21-23, or Galatians 5:19-21.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

19Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, cdivisions, 21envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that dthose who do2 such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


There is of course the case of Judas, a born again follower losing his salvation. He was given the power to cast out devils in the sixth chapter of Mark. 7 And He (Jesus) called unto him the twelve (which obviously include Judas), and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them POWER over unclean spirits (so Judas Iscariot was given power over unclean Spirits);


13 And they CAST OUT MANY DEVILS (and using the power given by the Lord, Judas Iscariot whom was sent as one of the twelve cast out many devils), and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them. Judas was given the Power of the Holy Ghost which enabled him to cast out many devils. That is an example of someone who has received the Holy Spirit and has been born again. Judas was saved at that time and one of the sheep the Father gave Jesus in John 17:12. Jesus betrayed the Lord so that the Word of God would be fulfilled.

There is also the case of Simon the Sorcerer. Some Arminians point out this example to demonstrate the possibility of salvation being lost. Although there is no mention of Simon losing his salvation, Peter does mention to him he is on the way to perdition if he does not repent. To me, this demonstrates how a Christian should continue to ask the Lord for forgiveness after a transgression is committed. If a Christian can fall from grace by trusting in His own righteousness, I don't see why a Christian can't fall from grace by being overcome by unrepentant sin. I don't see why a Christian can't leave the Spirit of God and disobey Him, continuing on in unrepentant sin of his/her own free will.


Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.13 Then SIMON HIMSELF BELIEVED ALSO: and when he was BAPTIZED, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

The information above, which Luke writes down for us in Acts, is that Simon believed and was baptized. That will absolutely make the reader understand Simon was saved. Or else Luke would have totally confused us with his information about Simon.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Peter tells Simon that he is on the way to perdition and that he needs to repent so that God can forgive him for his wicked acts. Peter tells Simon that his heart is not right, and of course that means he couldn’t have been “saved” (spiritually alive) during this particular time.

Acts 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.

The OSAS debate mostly involves these four theological questions. "Can a Christian fall from grace?" Is God's grace irresistible? Is man totally depraved? Is it possible for a Christian to return to willful and unrepentant sin and lose salvation? I am no theologian, but I can understand why this debate continues on.

I reject all of TULIP but understand why many of my fellow Christians accept those doctrines. It is my view that man is depraved, not totally depraved. Total depravity is of course the foundational doctrine upon which the other five points of Calvinism stand. Here are three arguments against that doctrine for anyone who is interested in reading them. http://lhim.org/blog/2014/02/06/three-arguments-against-total-depravity/. I know that most all of my brothers and sisters in the Lord who hold to OSAS are probably already aware of this.

AMEN! I like your bio,we share many of the same views on being a believer!
Welcome to cc,hang tough!

 

[Gardenias]

There are only about 5% of users in BDF that I agree with in respect to doctrine.
Where is our doctrine found?
Who is the author of our doctrine?
Who reveals and instructs us in that doctrine?

If any of the answers you think of come to mind with another's name other than God,then you are living by man made doctrine.

I am just an old fashioned believer that follows the Spirit,and allows him to teach me the doctrines of God.

OSAS
CALVINIST
ARMINIUSIST
HYPER GRACE
JESUS ONLY
LEGALISTS
DESPENSALIONIST
TRINITARIANS
ECT...ECT.

Where is the divide in the word for all these different interpretations and beliefs?
How do you study?
How sure are you of your weight in the balance?


Titus3:9 But avoid foolish debates,genealogies,quarrels,and disputes about the law,for they are unprofitable and worthless.

 

[Evmur]

yep

These are characteristics of those who have been saved by faith.

Not requirements

That would make people having to earn salvation. Which no one can do

God is PRECISE in His words

"Come oh blest of My Father for I was anhungered and ye gave Me meat, thirsty and ye gave Me drink etc" it was their deeds that brought them their reward. Their character is shown in that they were sheeps, not goats.

The question is what IS their inheritance?
Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth.

 

[Evmur]

Hi Evmur,

I understand what you are saying. The 'church' is saved in a different manner than the 'sheep'. Now you are playing a slight of hand with words when you say this: "it is against all scripture to believe the church is saved by works or deeds, we are saved by grace. Therefore these who do gain an inheritance because of deeds cannot be the church."

What you really mean is that there are two ways to salvation one by grace, and one by works deeds/merit.

You say:

Church/brethern = saved by grace

Sheep (wider mercy) = saved by deeds -by their own merit. (and not just the sheep anyone who does a good work, you said this :



The whole bible states there is only one way of salvation and that is By grace, through faith and in Christ alone. Good deeds or merit will never save anyone. I'm afraid your "wider mercy", two ways of salvation model does not fit within the teaching of scripture nor orthodoxy.




This is not true Evmur, you have taken a classic dispensational view and added your liberal wider mercy view, The classic dispensationalist never say the sheep are saved by their deeds/their own merit. In fact they say the sheep are saved by grace through, faith in Christ!


Do you remember saying this?




My advice is for you to go and actually read what Spurgeon said.. He certainly wouldn't be agreeing with you. Scriptural truth (revelation) does not move on... "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." (Heb 13:8). God does not change and neither does his word.

And, since you say evangelicals have not answered your liberal wider mercy view let me leave with you with what (dispensational) evangelicals actually say please take note this refutes your liberalism:

---------------------------
"In the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, we are looking at man redeemed and saved, and man condemned and lost. A casual reading seems to suggest that salvation is the result of good works. The “sheep” acted charitably, giving food, drink, and clothing to the needy. The “goats” showed no charity. This seems to result in salvation for the sheep and damnation for the goats.

However, Scripture does not contradict itself, and the Bible clearly and repeatedly teaches that salvation is by faith through the grace of God and not by our good works (see John 1:12; Acts 15:11; Romans 3:22-24; Romans 4:4-8; Romans 7:24-25; Romans 8:12; Galatians 3:6-9; and Ephesians 2:8-10). In fact, Jesus Himself makes it clear in the parable that the salvation of the “sheep” is not based on their works—their inheritance was theirs “since the creation of the world” (Matthew 25:34), long before they could ever do any good works!

The good works mentioned in the parable are not the cause of salvation but the effect of salvation. As Christians we become like Christ (see Romans 8:29; 2 Corinthians 3:18; and Colossians 2:6-7). Galatians 5:22 tells us that the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self-control. Good works in a Christian’s life are the direct overflow of these traits, and are only acceptable to God because of the relationship that exists between servant and Master, the saved and their Savior, the sheep and their Shepherd (see Ephesians 2:10).

The core message of the Parable of the Sheep and Goats is that God’s people will love others. Good works will result from our relationship to the Shepherd. Followers of Christ will treat others with kindness, serving them as if they were serving Christ Himself. The unregenerate live in the opposite manner. While “goats” can indeed perform acts of kindness and charity, their hearts are not right with God, and their actions are not for the right purpose – to honor and worship God. -https://www.gotquestions.org/parable-sheep-goats.html "
----------------------------------

Your doing a disservice to the Gospel paid at great cost and you are misrepresenting dispensationalists. (I'm not even a dispensationalists).

I am not saying what Spurgeon or what the dispensationalist say.

I'm saying what the scripture says, what it actually says not what your various commentators [who you quote] says it means.

First the scripture says the church does not figure in the last judgement, we have John says "passed from judgement to life" How CAN we be judged? Jesus was judged in our place aye and condemned and executed in our place.

No no our place in the last judgement Paul teaches is to judge the world, "God will bring us with when He comes to judge ..."

How will we judge the world?

Matthew 25 shows us
"Inasmuch as ye did it to one of the least of these My brethren ye did it to Me..."

Who are the church? the sheeps? or is it those whom He calls "these My brethren"?

The answer is as plain as the nose on your face

The problem started with Jerome who translated the ancient scripts into latin, see now the church had abandoned the doctrine concerning the 1, 000 year reign so he takes no cognition of the fact the the church had been raptured. You DO believe the resurrection is in stages don't you?

don't you believe that the resurrection is first Christ is raised, then those who are Christ's at His coming [already 2, 000 years apart] The resurrection comes first and then the judgement, not the other way around. John in Revelations shows that the resurrection is divided into the first resurrection "happy and holy is he who has part in the first resurrect for the 2nd death can have no power over them"

Then we have the 1, 000 years. Then we have the second and general resurrection unto judgement. And according to John they are judged according to their deeds.

Paul teaches exactly the same doctrine in 1. Corinthians . 15.
First Christ has been raised
Then they who are in Christ at His coming
Then comes the end
for He must first reign until all His enemies are put under His feet.

Jerome takes no cognition of all this so when he sees "The King will come on that day and all His holy ones with Him" he translates holy ones as holy angels, the word is sacredos, it can mean either holy angels or it can mean saints. I say it is saints in line with Paul.

It is the saints who the King refers to "as these My brethren"

 

[Evmur]

All

I am not saying what Spurgeon or what the dispensationalist say.

I'm saying what the scripture says, what it actually says not what your various commentators [who you quote] says it means.

First the scripture says the church does not figure in the last judgement, we have John says "passed from judgement to life" How CAN we be judged? Jesus was judged in our place aye and condemned and executed in our place.

No no our place in the last judgement Paul teaches is to judge the world, "God will bring us with when He comes to judge ..."

How will we judge the world?

Matthew 25 shows us
"Inasmuch as ye did it to one of the least of these My brethren ye did it to Me..."

Who are the church? the sheeps? or is it those whom He calls "these My brethren"?

The answer is as plain as the nose on your face

The problem started with Jerome who translated the ancient scripts into latin, see now the church had abandoned the doctrine concerning the 1, 000 year reign so he takes no cognition of the fact the the church had been raptured. You DO believe the resurrection is in stages don't you?

don't you believe that the resurrection is first Christ is raised, then those who are Christ's at His coming [already 2, 000 years apart] The resurrection comes first and then the judgement, not the other way around. John in Revelations shows that the resurrection is divided into the first resurrection "happy and holy is he who has part in the first resurrect for the 2nd death can have no power over them"

Then we have the 1, 000 years. Then we have the second and general resurrection unto judgement. And according to John they are judged according to their deeds.

Paul teaches exactly the same doctrine in 1. Corinthians . 15.
First Christ has been raised
Then they who are in Christ at His coming
Then comes the end
for He must first reign until all His enemies are put under His feet.

Jerome takes no cognition of all this so when he sees "The King will come on that day and all His holy ones with Him" he translates holy ones as holy angels, the word is sacredos, it can mean either holy angels or it can mean saints. I say it is saints in line with Paul.

It is the saints who the King refers to "as these My brethren"

All this adds up to the saying of Isaiah "God will judge with equity"

That is with perfect fairness, if God [holy as He is] cannot overlook sin, neither can He overlook good deeds as Jesus said.

"if anyone gives so much as a cup of water to one of these little ones because they believe in Me, they shall not lose their reward"

That makes for a massively wider mercy than is generally taught in Evangelicalism.

 

[phil36]

That makes for a massively wider mercy than is generally taught in Evangelicalism.

I will leave you to your liberal views Evmur.

 

[Evmur]

I will leave you to your liberal views Evmur.

I am not liberal thank you, I am orthodox conservative. Incidentally I am far from the only one who believes in the wider mercy, even Billy Graham did, christians know in their guts that billions of human souls will not go to hell. But they can't seem to find the scriptures that support it. Nor have you been able to stand before the scriptures I have shown. And I do believe in the doctrine of eternal punishment and can preach it freely, the wicked will go to hell. But who they are is not mine to judge.

The answer is this

You can't take doctrines out of the bible with it not having a knock on effect upon all the other doctrines. In the 4th century the church [because it had made a dirty deal with Rome] abandoned the doctrine of the 1, 000 year reign and substituted Amillennialism in it's place. The nature of this doctrine is to squeeze out the resurrection of the just or the rapture and compound the rapture at His second coming with the last resurrection.