Documentary—7 Pretrib Problems and the Prewrath Rapture

I have to withdraw my recommendation of this video. After watching it in its entirety it turned out to be nothing but Catholic propaganda. Most of it more ridiculous than even Steven Anderson.

Not really, in the last month or so I have had COVID 19 and C-Diff (bacteria infection from overuse of antibiotics from my wacky doc) which kills 30 percent of those it comes back on, on top of my heart condition, Diabetes (which God seems to gave healed last week, Amen) and my Radiation treatments after my Prostrate was taken out, so sometimes I get a little lackadaisical I admit in my typing, I just don't feel like worrying about it that much. It's legible I guess.

The points remain intact.

Why are you avoiding the question. Do you fear the unravelling of your false doctrine?

So I ask again: I asked you simply: How can one expand words that are limited in there scope. How can "few" or "many" become all? How can "sheep", who the Shepherd calls by name, become the whole of humanity? If you are not willing to answer these questions, then you really don't care about what the Scriptures TRULY teach.

You opened with this statement: "In connection with salvation, the words "all", "many", and "few" are all applicable in their proper contexts." That response, reminded me of a politician. Sounds good but said absolutely nothing.

I am going to take just this statement you made:

2. Christ died for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD.

If that were true - then explain the limitations placed on Christ's Atonement work, by none other than the Lord Himself.

Mat_20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Mat_26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Joh_17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
Joh 10:15 even as the Father knows me, and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Additional verse examples, not said directly from the Lord but through inspiration.

Isa_53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Act 13:48 And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

You said, "many", used herein, are applicable in there proper contexts. On this we agree. You then attempt to use Scripture against Scripture to explain away the limitations placed on the subject of "all". Scripture is neither at discord with itself nor confused. Discord and confusion are in the mind of man.

How can you present John 3:16, in such away, as to believe it rules over or dismisses the verses presented here? Scripture MUST be harmonized. One cannot present verses that use the word "all" and ignore the verses that limit the Atonement work of Jesus Christ and think they have harmony. This is foolishness on the grandest scale.

I don't care what your Theology is - but your Soteriology, must be able to bring all of the Scriptures into harmony. So please explain - if our Lord did not mean to limit His Atonement work - then why didn't He use the word "all" in these verses? Are how do you expand these words to include the meaning of "all"? How one responds to these questions, will clearly show whether they care about TRUTH or just what they believe.

Christ die for all believer because not all people believe so it use term many

But Christ love all people that is way He invite all whosoever believe

The grace of God is accessed through faith in Christ for literally anyone. This is the whole purpose of the great commission and why people have risked their lives preaching for millennia.

The problem with your heretical false doctrines are that if Christ did not die for everyone then He only died for X amount of people. If that's the case then we need not preach the gospel, live my faith, trust God, read the Bible, do good works, or anything. That's the problem with doctrines of men; they lead to complacency, apathy, and apostasy.

Yep God not ply favorite all invited with faith as the requirement but only some willing because lack of faith

Exactly. It's very simple.

1 John 5:13
13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

There are two questions which need to be addressed in this regard: (1) Were the sins of the whole world placed on the Lamb of God, who was made "SIN" for us? and (2) Do all who hear the Gospel obey it?

1. Regarding the Lamb of God, John the Baptist made a very clear and explicit statement which is true (since he was a prophet, and the greatest prophet according to Christ): The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (John 1:29) John Calvin (in his commentary on this verse found on Bible Hub) was compelled to concede that this verse meant exactly what it says. The sins of the human race were laid on Christ. Which also means that He paid for the sins of the whole world as the Propitiation (1 John 2:1,2). Therefore Christ made this blanket statement (Johh 3:17): For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2. However, Scripture makes it perfectly clear that only those who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ avail of this atonement (more accurately "propitiation). And here are the words of Christ (John 3:18-21) to confirm that: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

You just took the "I" right out of TULIP. Yep, that would pretty much bury the irresistible grace thingy...seeing that many were called but only a few were chosen. It would appear that some resisted.

So that leaves us with Tulp, so far.

I'm sure if you try real hard, then I'm sure you can get rid of at least a few more...especially the L, since that is actually trampling on the blood of Jesus. He said if I be lifted up I will draw all men to myself. If you don't like that then you should pray and/or at least keep your opinion out of it, and not try to limit the atonement.

Also, I'm not sure if you know this or not, but the "Many are called few are chosen" verse comes after a parable in which, the chosen/called/invited.... chose not to attend. So then the call was opened up to everyone in the highways. That's simple enough and has nothing to do with Calvinism. They first had a choice and chose not to accept the invitation.

Who is the Lord's sheep...the saved right....so why did he say the Pharisees was not his sheep....

The unbelief of the Jews
John 10
25“I already told you,” Jesus replied, “but you did not believe. The works I do in My Father’s name testify on My behalf. 26But because you are not My sheep, you refuse to believe. 27 My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand.…
Berean Study Bible

Oh yeah, that was because they were not saved for the simple fact that they refused or chose not to believe.

Also in another verse (Matt. 23:37) Jesus says how many times would I have gathered you under my wings as a hen does her chicks...yet you were unwilling.

None of these scriptures really work well with Calvinism.

persecutions come in waves throughout time and takes many forms . At times like the early church they were assaulted on all sides the Jews who rejected them considered them heretics and thought they were speeding blasphemy so they wanted them stopped at all cost

then later the Romans began persecuting the Jews and Christians eventually blaming Christians for the burning of Rome so the persecutions got very terrible they were in every way imaginable tortures and killed by Rome whomis famous for inventing tortures and terrible deaths

some were burned alive others beheaded o the era tossed to wild beasts ect

and then there are times of reletive peace scattered about and persecution takes a much lighter form people insult and make fun of us , maybe exclude us , don’t want to talk or hang out much because we always talk about Jesus or something in those areas of faith

then hard times come upon dofferent natikns where Christianity is flourishing and things get bad again . It’s been this way since Jesus was crucified for Christians but before that was like that for the prophets of Israel

we shouldn’t think we have a neheadinf coming up soon or some massive torture awaiting us but we should be prepared for some form of rejections and persecutions and if those terrible times come we should stick to faith even if it does cost us a death here it means we’re going to come alive with Jesus and be free of all the trials and pain and sorrows of the world

many believers brother never suffer much because of the times and places they live , and often we suffer spiritual persecutions that we think are physical or mental a person carrying depression all those life suffers plenty many forms through famines and floods and many thkngs

but it doesn’t mean we are all going to be tortured or even have some terrible sorrowful lives and suffer along all of it it’s about being prepared for whatever may come but trusting in Jesus to never give us too much that we can’t bear it

Persecution happen to unite us otherwise we fight each other I just read in Indonesian news a ex Muslim Christian pastor arrested because he talk in his YouTube about Mohammad is a liar and god never talk to him etc. as a matter fact His name start with Mohammad like his ex prophet
And Christian United try to help him, some Christian lawyer talk in YouTube how unfair police is. That kind of unity will not happen without persecution
Persecution is bad but there is good side out of it. It produce unity and love atmosfir

amen to all you said brother I’m being moved lately to devour much prayer to those in North Korea and other places like Indonesia and China and the Muslim nations because they are suffering beyond anything I myself have ever endured


your right for certain there’s a special place in heaven for those who endure those things I pray for their strength to endure though compared to them I know I am weak

NO - the problem with these discussions are that people who hold to your beliefs never answer direct questions. You throw in other comments and attempt to muddy the waters. This is why meaningful discussions never take place. One side throws their best points and the other side retaliates.

I desire a meaningful conversation but you will not engage. Therefore, further discussion would be likened to throwing tomatoes against a brick wall.

I for one have tried to have several meaningful conversations with Calvinists. Always turned out unfruitful. Doesn't matter what scripture you use. The Reformed/Calvinists have their sticking points and there is no getting around it.

I have actually even tried to see their point and scrutinize my own understanding. Yet, I don't think I have ever gotten that same courtesy from a Calvinist/Reformed individual in any conversation. They never want to discuss all the scriptures in context, put up a wall of text with one and sometimes even half verses from the scripture to try to prove their point. I'm to the point, I'm pretty much finished with engaging in such conversations.

It always ends up unfruitful and divisive.

I, actually, shouldn't have even butted into this conversation.

Every Soteriological group LIMITS Christ's Atonement work.

If you believe that Christ died for everyone - then you LIMIT the "Efficacy" of His Atonement. You believe the sins of the whole world were placed upon Jesus Christ but the "efficacy" of His blood must be obtained by a believer's faith. This belief, has Christ's death being wasted on those that do not believe. However, this does serious harm to the "efficacy" of Christ's Atoning work. It means that Christ's blood is not efficient enough to accomplish it's purpose. God provided the sacrifice but it alone is not enough to impute righteousness. If a person refuses to believe, then this sacrificial work is discarded.

How can the efficacy of Christ's work be discarded? Any blood that is not imputed, would have to be discarded. Christ's person and work, were accepted by the father, as a perfect and finished work. God would never allow mankind to be the final determinate factor. Why? Because throughout Scripture, God has never allowed, since the time of Adam, for mankind to be the final determinate factor. Scripture teaches again and again, that it is God who is in control of all things. All things not just some things.

Those who limit Christ's "efficacy", fail to realize, that God would not place the sins of the whole world upon Christ because this defies even human logic. Why would the Father, place upon the Son, the sins of those He already knows are lost? That's like a human father saying to his son: "Here son, carry these four bags of concrete over to the work site but we only need one." This would be illogical.

Those who LIMIT the "efficacy" of the Atoning work, fail to realize, that righteousness and justification, come by the "faithfulness" of Jesus Christ, not by our or any individuals faith.

Those who do not believe that Christ died for the whole world - LIMIT the "extent" of His Atoning work. If the "extent" is not LIMITED, then ALL (world), that Christ died for will be saved. The Bible does not teach this. Efficacy is never in question. All whom Christ died for, have it's full efficacy, (Eternally finished) and will believe, (Temporal reality). This Atoning work was completed in the mind of God from eternity past. This is why Christ said, on many occasions, The work He did, The Father gave him to do. The words He said, were the words The Father gave Him to say. Therefore, the ones He came to die for, were the ones The Father had given Him.

This is why the Elect were chosen IN Christ before the foundation of the world and why the Lamb of God was slain before the foundation of the world.

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Eternity - guarantees it. Time will manifest it.

I totally agree with this. God foreknew and predestined those whom He chose to save before the world began and at that time wrote their names in the book of life. Actually Rev.13:8 is pretty much saying the same thing as Rev.17:8:

"And those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet will be." - Rev.17:8

"And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain." - Rev.13:8

Then we have the following:

Acts 13:48
"When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were [appointed] for eternal life believed."

1 Peter 2:8
To you who believe, then, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,

“The stone the builders rejected

has become the cornerstone,”

and,

“A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense.”

They stumble because they disobey the word—and to this they were appointed

When it says "God so loved the world" He's speaking of those whom He chose before the world began, not everyone.

God Chose those whom He wanted to save from before the world began. Some might say that this is unfair, but it isn't because no one is worthy of salvation. God could have not saved anyone and He would be justified, because all have sinned. However, God chose to saves some, by His Sovereign will and purpose. Many don't like this truth, because it takes salvation out of the hands of mankind and puts in God's hands.

I will reply to both of your posts - here. Starting with your second post and working backwards.

I too, look for a meaningful exchange. I grow weary of talking points without substance. Every believer that holds something to be TRUE, should desire to have that belief tested. Not using one Scripture or another against a Scripture but desiring to harmonize the Whole Word of God. I welcome a meaningful exchange of understanding. Good interpretation and incite. For there is bad interpretation and incite. Just as there are those who set themselves up to be teachers while their Theology is foolishness.

I hope you will enjoin me, in taking a serious look at what Scripture says on the subject of Soteriology. That we can both lay down any perceived ideas and be open to Truth, wherever it may lead.

Now to your first point. I do not try to wipeout Calvin's so-called TULIP but I do not agree with all of Calvin's definitions given to TULIP. For instance - Calvin defined "T" as: Total Depravity. I can't go along with that. Fallen mankind is not totally depraved. Individuals are capable of some good works. Doctors heal the sick. People give to various good causes. Others help the poor. Some even die for another. But it could be said - that if you are not in Christ, then these works would not be seen as "good" from God's perspective. However, fallen mankind is spiritually depraved. Scripture says that fallen mankind is dead, spiritually speaking. It contrasts the abilities of the "natural" man to a "spiritual" man. Since God is Spirit and His Words are Spirit, they are discerned not by the "natural" man. Hopefully, you are versed in the Scriptures well enough, that I do not have to give a bunch of Verses to prove this point.

So I do not destroy the "I" in TULIP but give "Irresistible Grace" hardy approval. Irresistible Grace is not the many facets of Soteriology but is one definite point in time; the time of ones New Birth of John 3:3-10. This is the Sovereign work of the Spirit upon one of God's chosen. This new birth is an active work of the Spirit upon the passive recipient. It regenerates the dead spirit of a man and alters his fallen nature.

The parable of Matthew 22:2-14, covers a lot of ground. It is a parable about "the General Call" of the Gospel. The Jews were invited to the wedding but found themselves occupied with the things of the world and as such were found to be lacking. They heard the General Call of the Gospel but it had no effect. (V2-8). The King then sent His servants into the "highways". Which means, the message, the General Call, went out of Israel into the other nations and they rounded up whoever they could - Jew and Gentile. (V.9&10). The general call of the Gospel will bring both the unsaved (into the sphere of Christ's teachings), and the saved (who are in Christ). The one without a wedding garment was cast out. The wedding garment being emblematic of the righteousness of Christ. (V.11-13).

Therefore, the one without the wedding garment was not one of the chosen. The Gospel is preached indiscriminately. Many hear the "General Call" of the Gospel but because they have not been Regenerated, the message falls on unfertile ground. Only the chosen are robed in Christ's Righteousness because subsequent to the new birth, the Gospel lands on fertile ground. This is called "the Effectual call of the Gospel". Thus, Many are called (The General Call), but few are chosen (The Effectual Call).

In both of your other Biblical texts - the reason for their unbelief is because they have not been Regenerated. They were still in their darkened, spiritually dead nature.

I would suggest, that if you would like a meaningful discussion, then pick one of my points and let's continue to discuss it. If the conversation gets to broad to fast, the discussion will become chaotic. I am not trying to convince you, that my view is correct, unless I can prove it from Scripture - Through proper Interpretation and spiritual incite.

I don't believe you'll learn anything if I just directly answer your questions. You'll just keep leading me deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole if I dignify your false doctrine with friendly curiousity. I see you're accustomed to people not answering your questions, no surprise there.

The reason this keeps happening to you is probably because of the reasons I just mentioned above. Stumbling upon the truth by yourself, believing it was your idea, is about the only way I can think of to circumnavigate your pride, because you won't accept the truth when it is presented to you by other people.

Giving you the tools to experience that lightbulb moment of realization of a fundamental truth of God's word is the best gift I can give you.

This Scripture alone exposes the error of pre-trib and the judgement for all who preach pre-trib.

Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers.
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort,
who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 2 Timothy 2: 14-18