1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 Vs. Matthew 24:29-31
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The testing he keeps us from doesn't just mean temptation the definition of testing is
To say it means temptation is a clever loophole but not the meaning of the word the only temptation one would go through in the tribulation is taking the mark and even then he will keep us from it?
- n.
The act of testing or proving; trial; proof. - n.
The operation of refining gold or silver in a test, or cupel; cupellation. - n.
a machine used in the determination of the strength of materials, as iron, stone, etc., and their behavior under strains of various kinds, as elongation, bending, crushing, etc
To say it means temptation is a clever loophole but not the meaning of the word the only temptation one would go through in the tribulation is taking the mark and even then he will keep us from it?
"The day of the Lord" is not: 1) merely a singular 24-hr day, and 2) does not arrive at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, nor 3/4 of the way through the 7 trib years; Rather, it "ARRIVES," like Paul states, at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:1-3]" (per what Jesus Himself talked about in His Olivet Discourse: Matt24:4/Mk13:5<--the FIRST of MANY MORE "BPs" that follow on from that INITIAL ONE... and these "beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" are equivalent to the SEALS at the START of the "7 years" [not their END, nor even commencing 3/4 of the way through those years])...
Consider also:
Isaiah 13:9 -
"Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it."
Zephaniah 1:18 -
Bishops' Bible of 1568
"Neither their siluer nor their gold shalbe able to deliuer them in that wrothful day of the Lorde, but the who e lande shalbe consumed thorowe the fire of his ielousie: for he shall soone make cleane riddaunce of all them that dwell in the lande."
Coverdale Bible of 1535
"Nether their syluer ner their golde shalbe able to delyuer the in that wrothfull daye of the LORDE, but the whole londe shalbe cosumed thorow the fyre of his gelousy: for he shall soone make clene ryddaunce of all them that dwell in the londe."
Consider also:
Isaiah 13:9 -
"Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it."
Zephaniah 1:18 -
Bishops' Bible of 1568
"Neither their siluer nor their gold shalbe able to deliuer them in that wrothful day of the Lorde, but the who e lande shalbe consumed thorowe the fire of his ielousie: for he shall soone make cleane riddaunce of all them that dwell in the lande."
Coverdale Bible of 1535
"Nether their syluer ner their golde shalbe able to delyuer the in that wrothfull daye of the LORDE, but the whole londe shalbe cosumed thorow the fyre of his gelousy: for he shall soone make clene ryddaunce of all them that dwell in the londe."
Not only that, but the verse states "to try them that dwell [/dwelling - G2730 - katoikeo] upon the earth"
^ That simply is NOT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (who are INSTEAD said to be "ambassadors," and whose "citizenship is in the heavens," and who've been exhorted NOT "to mind earthly things" [Israel's "earthly" things] but rather to "set your minds on things above," where Christ is seated and where WE have been "seated together" with Him "in the heavenlies, IN CHRIST JESUS");
Here's the word "G2730 - katoikeo" (used in Rev3:10) -
HELPS Word-studies
2730 katoikéō (from 2596 /katá, "down, according to," intensifying 3611 /oikéō, "dwell, reside") – properly, settle down as a permanent resident, i.e. in a fixed (permanent) dwelling place as one's personal residence; (figuratively) "to be exactly at home."
[The force of the prefix (2596 /katá) suggests "down to the finest, exact details."]
[end quoting from BibleHub]
____________
["Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance,..." = who grasp the above ^ issues ]
^ That simply is NOT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (who are INSTEAD said to be "ambassadors," and whose "citizenship is in the heavens," and who've been exhorted NOT "to mind earthly things" [Israel's "earthly" things] but rather to "set your minds on things above," where Christ is seated and where WE have been "seated together" with Him "in the heavenlies, IN CHRIST JESUS");
Here's the word "G2730 - katoikeo" (used in Rev3:10) -
HELPS Word-studies
2730 katoikéō (from 2596 /katá, "down, according to," intensifying 3611 /oikéō, "dwell, reside") – properly, settle down as a permanent resident, i.e. in a fixed (permanent) dwelling place as one's personal residence; (figuratively) "to be exactly at home."
[The force of the prefix (2596 /katá) suggests "down to the finest, exact details."]
[end quoting from BibleHub]
____________
["Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance,..." = who grasp the above ^ issues ]
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What!? Sorry but I hardly think it's credible that you can pull what you're saying out of those verses. Chapter 3 yes is dealing with different type of churches or gathering of believers and telling them what they need to be aware of but to say AFTER THIS in Ch 4:1 now it's not even a message that relates to the church is pushing an interpretation and not being warranted to do so.
do we think the number seven is a literal count in revelation ? Or is it a seal of some sort to identify what’s complete and true ? And possibly points to Christ Jesus ?
“And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.”
Genesis 2:2 KJV
“And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.”
Genesis 5:24 KJV
“By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.”
Hebrews 11:5 KJV
“And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,”
Jude 1:14 KJV
“And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: ( Hebrews 4:12) and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.( Matthew 17:2)
The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.”
Revelation 1:12, 16, 20
“And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.”
Revelation 4:5 KJV
“And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.”
Revelation 5:1, 5-6 KJV
“And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.”
Revelation 8:1-2 KJV
“And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.”
Revelation 10:3, 7-8 KJV
“And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”
Revelation 11:15 KJV
Getting long but it Seems like it all connects and reveals someone or something or both , and could maybe be not a literal count of seven of anything
“And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.”
Genesis 2:2 KJV
“And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.”
Genesis 5:24 KJV
“By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.”
Hebrews 11:5 KJV
“And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,”
Jude 1:14 KJV
“And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: ( Hebrews 4:12) and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.( Matthew 17:2)
The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.”
Revelation 1:12, 16, 20
“And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.”
Revelation 4:5 KJV
“And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.”
Revelation 5:1, 5-6 KJV
“And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.”
Revelation 8:1-2 KJV
“And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.”
Revelation 10:3, 7-8 KJV
“And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”
Revelation 11:15 KJV
Getting long but it Seems like it all connects and reveals someone or something or both , and could maybe be not a literal count of seven of anything
Exactly which is why I said to him using the word that way is a clever loophole but the word is not used in that way and honestly what you wrote is just common sense. But I expected this though scripture was given that clealry states who the testing is for and of course it fell on deaf ears and then manipulated to say something else which I knew would happen
Sorry Ahwatukee but from what I'm seeing they are.
Athwatukee I think you're missing a simple thing of scripture. One DOESN'T HAVE TO have all things mentioned the same to make it THE SAME. The gospels are full of such examples. In Luke 7 we see where a Centurion sent the Jews and servants to get Jesus to come to his house. In Luke it states he sent friends to tell him he need not come but just speak the word only.....in a different gospel is merely says a Centurion said this. So one account just deals with certain items which were true the other is more of a full account of what happened. I could say to you something through my lawyer but it still me saying it. There are many other examples of this in the gospels too. So that's proof you don't have to have all the things in one account exactly the same as the other.
Athwatukee I think you're missing a simple thing of scripture. One DOESN'T HAVE TO have all things mentioned the same to make it THE SAME. The gospels are full of such examples. In Luke 7 we see where a Centurion sent the Jews and servants to get Jesus to come to his house. In Luke it states he sent friends to tell him he need not come but just speak the word only.....in a different gospel is merely says a Centurion said this. So one account just deals with certain items which were true the other is more of a full account of what happened. I could say to you something through my lawyer but it still me saying it. There are many other examples of this in the gospels too. So that's proof you don't have to have all the things in one account exactly the same as the other.
Thanks for responding!
You are correct in that "this verse seems to prove an action taken to shelter or protect us from it." Below is the verse:
"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you [out of] the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."
Many of the translations have it "I will keep you [from] the hour of trial," which still works. The Greek word is 'ek' which means 'out of,' i.e. the Lord is going to keep believers within the church [out of] the hour of trial, not protect us through it, but out of it, meaning that we will not even be exposed to those events of wrath that will be coming upon the whole inhabited world. I personally believe that this is a hint regarding the gathering of the church in that, the Lord will keep us out of that time of God's wrath by gathering us to meet Him in the air according to His promise.
You are correct in that "this verse seems to prove an action taken to shelter or protect us from it." Below is the verse:
"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you [out of] the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."
Many of the translations have it "I will keep you [from] the hour of trial," which still works. The Greek word is 'ek' which means 'out of,' i.e. the Lord is going to keep believers within the church [out of] the hour of trial, not protect us through it, but out of it, meaning that we will not even be exposed to those events of wrath that will be coming upon the whole inhabited world. I personally believe that this is a hint regarding the gathering of the church in that, the Lord will keep us out of that time of God's wrath by gathering us to meet Him in the air according to His promise.
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Yes exactly and I truly believe that time is very close. If you didn't know this is the 70th shemitah year since Israel came back to it's land the year coming is 5782 the meaning of this is the letter bet in the hebrew alphabet meaning to shelter house or dwelling not to mention the sheer profund fact it will be the 70th shemitah year since the end times clock countdown with Israel
I am in deep research on the end times right now and the more I dig the more I am convinced that this shemitah year will be a turning point perhaps even the rapture and the start of the tribulation
I am in deep research on the end times right now and the more I dig the more I am convinced that this shemitah year will be a turning point perhaps even the rapture and the start of the tribulation
Well, I can explain it based on God's word. God's judgment and wrath are just two words describing the same events. In Revelation, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are referred to as plagues, judgments and wrath, which is speaking in regards to the unprecedented plagues of wrath that God will be unleashing upon the world though various angels, as well as the plagues that are brought by the two witnesses. The book of Revelation is a detailed account of the 'The Day of the Lord,' i.e. the time of God's wrath, which has been prophesied for thousands of years through various prophets. Compare the following info regarding the Day of the Lord:
========================================================
“I will completely sweep away everything from the face of the earth,”
declares the LORD.
“I will sweep away man and beast;
I will sweep away the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea,
and the idols with their wicked worshipers.
I will cut off mankind from the face of the earth,” - Zephaniah 1:2-3
Compare:
For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short. - Matt.24:21-22
====================================================================================
With just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, the fatalities during the time of God's wrath will be a fourth and a third, respectively, which would be over half the earth's population killed within the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. And that does not include the fatalities resulting from trumpets 1,2 and 3, nor from the bowl judgments. This definitely supports when Jesus said, if those days were allowed to go on any longer than the prophesied time, no one would be left alive on the earth.
When the Lord returns to the earth, the angels will go out and first gather the wicked/weeds (Matt.13:30) and take them to the area of Armageddon where they will be killed by the double-edged sword which proceeds from the mouth of the Lord, which symbolically represents the word of God. (Revelation 19:21)
The last judgment will take place after the millennial period at the great white throne judgment, where all of the angels and unrighteous dead will be judged and then thrown into the lake of fire.
========================================================
“I will completely sweep away everything from the face of the earth,”
declares the LORD.
“I will sweep away man and beast;
I will sweep away the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea,
and the idols with their wicked worshipers.
I will cut off mankind from the face of the earth,” - Zephaniah 1:2-3
Compare:
For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short. - Matt.24:21-22
====================================================================================
With just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, the fatalities during the time of God's wrath will be a fourth and a third, respectively, which would be over half the earth's population killed within the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. And that does not include the fatalities resulting from trumpets 1,2 and 3, nor from the bowl judgments. This definitely supports when Jesus said, if those days were allowed to go on any longer than the prophesied time, no one would be left alive on the earth.
When the Lord returns to the earth, the angels will go out and first gather the wicked/weeds (Matt.13:30) and take them to the area of Armageddon where they will be killed by the double-edged sword which proceeds from the mouth of the Lord, which symbolically represents the word of God. (Revelation 19:21)
The last judgment will take place after the millennial period at the great white throne judgment, where all of the angels and unrighteous dead will be judged and then thrown into the lake of fire.
They are easily seen in Scripture.
The foundation for Truth in understanding Revelation is this spoken by the Apostle John:
I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.” Acts 14: 22
What is not seen in Scripture is pre-trib rapture or 'the church shall not go through the great tribulation.
But hey, you can make a EASY $1,000
$1,000 (US dollars) to the first person that can show the scripture(s) that clearly state: The Bride of Christ/His Elect/the Church is pre-tribulation raptured before the First Resurrection and before the Antichrist. The Bride of Christ/His Elect/the Church as a whole Body of Believers.
*** IMPORTANT - Individual believers/resurrections/raptures such as Enoch, Elijah, Lazarrus, John and the Saints from Matthew 27:51-53 (which is the fulfillment of Isaiah 26:19) = DO NOT QUALIFY.
Rules have been set forth by the Moderator = our Lord Jesus Christ
Rules Apply: ONLY Scripture: No Conjecture - No Commentaries - No personal belief statements
Rules for Disqualification: Seeking to Argue/Arguments - Adding to or taking away from God's Word - Personal Belief Statements - Conjecture
"I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book." Revelation 22:18-19
Proverbs 30: 5-6 "Every word of God is flawless; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Deuteronomy 4:1-2 Hear now, O Israel, the statutes and ordinances I am teaching you to follow, so that you may live and may enter and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you
You must not add to or subtract from what I command you, so that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I am giving you.
EXAMPLE to Follow as Your Guide: Show Proof (Scripture) that Jesus is the ONLY way we can be saved.
ANSWER(S): John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by Me.
Acts 4:11-12 This Jesus is ‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’
Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”
The foundation for Truth in understanding Revelation is this spoken by the Apostle John:
I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.” Acts 14: 22
What is not seen in Scripture is pre-trib rapture or 'the church shall not go through the great tribulation.
But hey, you can make a EASY $1,000
$1,000 (US dollars) to the first person that can show the scripture(s) that clearly state: The Bride of Christ/His Elect/the Church is pre-tribulation raptured before the First Resurrection and before the Antichrist. The Bride of Christ/His Elect/the Church as a whole Body of Believers.
*** IMPORTANT - Individual believers/resurrections/raptures such as Enoch, Elijah, Lazarrus, John and the Saints from Matthew 27:51-53 (which is the fulfillment of Isaiah 26:19) = DO NOT QUALIFY.
Rules have been set forth by the Moderator = our Lord Jesus Christ
Rules Apply: ONLY Scripture: No Conjecture - No Commentaries - No personal belief statements
Rules for Disqualification: Seeking to Argue/Arguments - Adding to or taking away from God's Word - Personal Belief Statements - Conjecture
"I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book." Revelation 22:18-19
Proverbs 30: 5-6 "Every word of God is flawless; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Deuteronomy 4:1-2 Hear now, O Israel, the statutes and ordinances I am teaching you to follow, so that you may live and may enter and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you
You must not add to or subtract from what I command you, so that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I am giving you.
EXAMPLE to Follow as Your Guide: Show Proof (Scripture) that Jesus is the ONLY way we can be saved.
ANSWER(S): John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by Me.
Acts 4:11-12 This Jesus is ‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’
Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”
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Hello again!
First of all, I have been studying this information for a very long time and am therefore not speaking off the cuff of my sleeve. I don't post or teach anything that I am not sure of. I am very aware that there are different details regarding the same events in scripture. However, that cannot be applied here with Matthew 24:29-31 vs. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.
The point that I was getting across is that people make the mistake of interpreting Matt.24:29-31 as being the same event as 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. These are not the same event with just different details, but are completely different events.
The event of 1 Thess.4:16-17, is when the Lord appears in the atmosphere and resurrects the dead and changes and calls up the living believers immortal and glorified. At that time the entire church will be gathered in the same place at the same time, where in fulfillment of John 14:1-3 the Lord will take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us.
In opposition, Matt.24:29-31 is when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establishes His millennial kingdom. At this time, He will send out His angels who will be gathering LIVING people who will have made it through the entire period of God's wrath. To be clear, angels going out to gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other, is not in reference to the gathering of the church, but to gather those great tribulation saints who will have made it alive through that entire time of wrath.
So, this is not a matter of one scripture being a summary and the other being a detailed account, but they are two completely different events. As I said in the OP, the church cannot be gathered after God's wrath has completed, because it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God, which we are not appointed to suffer and that because Jesus already satisfied it for every believer.
First of all, I have been studying this information for a very long time and am therefore not speaking off the cuff of my sleeve. I don't post or teach anything that I am not sure of. I am very aware that there are different details regarding the same events in scripture. However, that cannot be applied here with Matthew 24:29-31 vs. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.
The point that I was getting across is that people make the mistake of interpreting Matt.24:29-31 as being the same event as 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. These are not the same event with just different details, but are completely different events.
The event of 1 Thess.4:16-17, is when the Lord appears in the atmosphere and resurrects the dead and changes and calls up the living believers immortal and glorified. At that time the entire church will be gathered in the same place at the same time, where in fulfillment of John 14:1-3 the Lord will take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us.
In opposition, Matt.24:29-31 is when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establishes His millennial kingdom. At this time, He will send out His angels who will be gathering LIVING people who will have made it through the entire period of God's wrath. To be clear, angels going out to gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other, is not in reference to the gathering of the church, but to gather those great tribulation saints who will have made it alive through that entire time of wrath.
So, this is not a matter of one scripture being a summary and the other being a detailed account, but they are two completely different events. As I said in the OP, the church cannot be gathered after God's wrath has completed, because it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God, which we are not appointed to suffer and that because Jesus already satisfied it for every believer.
