Are there legit arguments of why orthodox jews don't believe jesus to be the Messiah.

This is where Melchizedek comes in. Abraham tithed to him even though he had no lineage. This puts the entire Jewish race under the grace that Melchizedek: a man with no earthly lineage, represented. If I recall correctly, Jewish tradition in the Book of Jasher (mentioned in the Old Testament), records that Abraham spent time with Melchizedek to learn his ways and to receive instruction on righteousness.

Furthermore;

"And His name will be called... Prince of Peace."

This is a direct connection to Melchizedek, who was the king of Salem (which is derived from shalom or "Peace").

God's promise to the Hebrews at Sinai was that they would be of this lineage: a royal nation of priests, not deriving their identity from their natural DNA connection to Abraham. Yet, because they were afraid to enter His presence, they received the covenant of the Law instead. To be reconciled with God today is to be brought back under the grace their patriarch recognized in Melchizedek.

This is a faint attempt at an answer. I think I could write whole pages for each sentence.

they hadn’t heard the scriptres

“Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.”
‭‭Malachi‬ ‭4:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

a few heard and accepted him but most rejected and accused him and killed him

They were waiting for Elijah to come but he came

“And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

And if ye will receive it, this is Elijah, which was for to come. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:12-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬


they beheaded him and crucified the lord

“Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me:

and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.”
‭‭Malachi‬ ‭3:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he did though Elijah came and so did the lord who brought forth the covenant

“The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;

Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:1-6, 14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they had. I eyes and ears even though they had the scripture

“Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:39-40‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it was part of the plan always

“And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭8:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they couldn’t hear the scripture so they were looking at this earth and wanting peace but already thier scriptures had declared this

“For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭65:17-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it was a new Jerusalem being created the old was not going to be remembered

yes good stuff there if you notice there’s always been that understanding when they feared Gods word it wasn’t a transgression God actually approved of their fear he says “ they have well spoken that which they have spoken and then he gave the promise of Jesus to come ( the priest of the new order )

“The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.

And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭18:15-19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Moses had shattered the forst clvenwnt tablets because they worshipped the golden calf , that point this happened

“To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt, Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.

Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭7:39-42‬ ‭KJV‬‬

but at the same point they received the future promise of Christ to come . Because of what happened the leviticle order was set over the law because of transgression and the ordination was given into angels and mediated by Moses

“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions,

till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Abraham’s promised seed is referring to Jesus of course but more than that whenever we are talking about Jesus we’re actually talking about the high priest in melchezideks order so we can understand onlrdained the Gospel ? The one true and only God ordained the gospel , and we can understand I mediated the gospel , the one true and only God In the form of man mediated the gospel and we can be assured that Thy is high priest in the heavens that was always and will always yet be is before the one true and only God being himself God yet serving as to become our one and only mediator and intercessor before God in heaven advocating for our life against all accusations from the accuser who he cast out of heaven when he arrived glorified as the son of man

“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:5, 7

this earth is lost but our home is in heaven being made ourselves as his priests in melchezideks order in the heavenly and vast glories of the promise ahead

“And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth.

Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

there is a priesthood in heaven and they come from all nations serving not as servants but serving in the love and presence of God who is within us now and will always be

“And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

They shall no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:14-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬


And they become those of the new creation when heaven meets earth in chapter 21 coming down with the city of God ruled by its king and priest melchezidek the son of the most high God

The whole image in the Bible of the son of man standing at Gods right hand is a clear reference to melchezidek the high priest who is in his presence and his fellow

Jesus became a man to be the priest and then was glorified in heaven to accomplish salvstion before God and far beyond this fading life this was always melchezideks promise showing through

“Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭22:69‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

melchezidek is priest and king of Gods city in heaven which is why Jesus was preaching about the gospel of the kingdom of God and not the mosaic law pertaining to the earth

Isaiah 53 is a passage that is also forbidden them.

A very good video clip -- the rabbi explains the Jewish views carefully and clearly. I dare say most of this forum would be easily defeated by him in a nonbiased debate format.

It is easy to think that the Jews have no "answer" for Isaiah 53, but they have various ways of explaining that text! (though of course they are all wrong)

It seems like the same situation as like a hyper grave believer they are blinded so they reject anything that shows them the truth

“Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvellously: for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you.”
‭‭Habakkuk‬ ‭1:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you. And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭13:39-45‬ ‭

notice when people started listening they got jealous

it seems Christ was a stumbling stone to them intentionally for all the times they rejected Gods prophets calling them to repentance and maybe they are blind by rejecting him May he open the eyes of the blind again as he has done before

Think about the power and authority those empowered by their authority in the temple would lose.
The Messiah has come. Now what?

Amen that’s it to a tee . They felt that way because they didn’t hear the witness instead they were looking at Moses words of the law and never ever reached the oooint to look up into the stars like Abraham did when he received the promise of Christ

the law sets the jew in power over all the earth , they were the judges and they determined the rule , when he came it was an offense because they didn’t hear the witness of Christ in the scripture thoer eyes are still today looking at the dust and labor of Adam , but Christ opened the door to salvstion they could never attain to everyone in earth who believes

it makes them just another believer hoping In the lord for their salvation the same as everyone else you. Ailed thier soirit and that’s thier blindfold created by looking at the law without faith created by its witness of Jesus

The people gathered when Pilate was to judge whom would go free, Jesus or Barabbas, were all gathered most likely by authority of the temple Sanhedrin. Because the Jewish people knew of Jesus and his miracles. They loved him. The throngs that followed him were proof of this.
Therefore, those who answered Pilate and "voted" for Barabbas to be freed and not Jesus doesn't make sense. Unless, the gathered people were ordered to obey the edict of the Sanhedrin and free Barabbas.

Do you remember the fallout when the Mel Gibson feature , Passion of the Christ, premiered in theaters?
I was in Kansas at the time. I went alone because I was on a traveling vacation and saw the theater marquee from a distance.
As I was about to enter the one of many theater rooms dedicated to PotC at different play times an Orthodox Jewish man approached. He asked me to reconsider watching that anti-Semitic film. "For the love of God."

I expected something like that because he was simply committed to a national campaign the Jews decided to pursue in theaters all over America apparently and when the film premiered.

So I answered his love of God statement. I asked if he was familiar with Deuteronomy 21:8.

And then I pulled out a hand written note upon which I wrote the passage from Matthew27. I'd written this while in the parking lot and because I remembered the news reports warning of him and others like him.
Matthew 27:25 When Pilate saw that he was accomplishing nothing, but that instead a riot was breaking out, he took water and washed his hands before the crowd. “I am innocent of this man’s blood,” he said. “You bear the responsibility.” 25 All the people answered, “His blood be on us and on our children!” 26So Pilate released Barabbas to them. But he had Jesus flogged, and handed Him over to be crucified.

It isn't anti-Semitic sir. It's your history.

Then I walked into the theater with my overpriced bag of popcorn and drink.
He wasn't in the hall awaiting any theater rooms seating when our show let out. I waited thinking he'd taken a restroom break to see what he had to say about the note.
He never showed.

loved the movie and yes , I think people who don’t realize what’s in scripture then will try to blame only the jew for his death , but actually the jew condemned him and the Roman gentile crucified him

we are all guilty of his death whether jew or gentile by our sins he took upon himself I think the glory is this part

“Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭23:34‬ ‭KJV‬‬

see how even Gentiles we’re fulfilling prophecy there parting his garments ?

the jew condemned him by thier law and the token gentile kingdom ruling over them mocked him beat him and crucified him by the accusation of Moses law of sin and death

so racists use it as if the jew is different from gentile worse and more guilty but it’s all of us who are guilty of his suffering and his glory hearing “ forgive them “

the worldly doesn’t hear the spiritual things so they look by thier jidgement and say anti Semitic anti Semitic

or they say gentile gentile jew jew but Christ has long ago said this

“For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female:

for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:26-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Notice how all the flesh identity has gone ? Jew gentile male female …

Abraham’s children are born here as heirs to his promises

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God:

but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:6-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we’re born again as the children of Abraham and the israel of God in heaven and our flesh birth to whom or where is insignificant in the light of these things

Interestingly enough when God renamed Jacob “ Israel “ remember this dream of the lord making a way into heaven ?

“And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it. And, behold, the Lord stood above it, and said, I am the Lord God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭28:12-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and we see Jesus now fulfilling that dream reaching from earth to heaven

“And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:51‬ ‭KJV‬‬

There is one thing about what you said here. "and the token gentile kingdom ruling over them mocked him beat him and crucified him by the accusation of Moses law of sin and death"

Don't forget Jesus' trial before the Sanhedrin first. And that they did not convict Jesus for the charges brought against him there. A trial by the way which was not in keeping with the law.

This meant for the High Priest Caiaphas, who was also president of the Sanhedrin, to accomplish his goal, the killing of Jesus, the charges against Jesus had to qualify as crimes against Rome in order for them to get Rome to do their dirty work.

Rome sought to conquer the whole world. However, to keep the peace among so many under their banner Rome allowed religious freedom and practice among their subjects. Just as long as the peace was kept in those practices.

The only way the state, Rome, could kill Jesus was if he was charged with a crime against the emperor, the state.
And this is what we read in Luke 23. .
“We found this man misleading our nation and forbidding to pay taxes to Caesar, and saying that He Himself is Christ, a King.”

The Roman soldiers who beat Jesus were not beholding to nor following any part of the law of Moses in doing so. Rather, one of the charges the temple elders made against Jesus while trying to convince Pilate to have him arrested was that of Treason.

It was that offense for which he was beaten by the guards. They believing Jesus was inciting Sedition and Treason against Rome.
Jesus was acquitted of the treason charge by Pilate because when asked if Jesus was king of the Jews, Jesus responded and said his kingdom was not of this world. Therein proving himself to not be a threat to the current order of things.

Further, because it was so close to Passover Jesus could not have been stoned had the Sanhedrin found him guilty of the charges against him. Because, as they said in Mark 14, they did not want to cause an uproar among the Jewish faithful who followed Jesus.

Which is interesting in itself when remembering the Jews "voting" for Barabbas to be freed and not Jesus. If the Sanhedrin were concerned about an uproar from the people should they have stoned Jesus for his supposed crimes, how did they incite an uproar of the people when it came to choosing whom would go free, Jesus or Barabbas, when the people gathered knew Rome crucified Traitors? And others.

Therefore, in point of fact, while the Gentile pagan guards were guilty of abusing Jesus, it was indeed the act of Caiaphas and those who brought Jesus before Pilate and accused him of crimes against Rome that are responsible for Jesus death.

Because Pilate had washed his hands after interrogating Jesus. This meant that Rome's authority did not find cause to execute sentence against Jesus for violating Roman law.

And even those responsible for Jesus death, the High Priest and others of the temple, did accept full responsibility for Jesus death. This when they said, let his blood be on us, and on our children. In Matthew27:25
Therefore, it is solely the responsibility of those ancient Jews. That's not anti-Semitic. That's their history. And they did accept Jesus blood to be upon them and their generations for it.

Yes amen that is my point every race is guilty of sin and that’s why he died , but also and better every race and nationality is welcomed into his kingdom by his abounding and great mercy forgiving both jew and gentile for our sins

first he came to isreal then he was sent out to all all are guilty and all are offered repentance and an invite home through the one messiah and lord over all

Christ transcends the flesh and even our sin against him he’s provided salvstion for all but the catch is that we can’t be blind and deaf when he is speaking in the gospel of salvstion

Intres Interesting you brought up the trail of jesus. I had posted another question asking if we could learn anything from the rabbi.
Did you know that the trail of jesus by night along with the offering of Christ or barabus shadowed the offering of the scapegoat?
Any Messianic rabbi will tell you the new testament is very very Jewish.
Why these things are not taught in churches is beyond me.
God uses the law the feast and the offerings throughout the gospel and many don't make the connection.
Remembering we have a never changing God who honors his word above his name should be a guide line in all that study.
Jesus is the passover lamb that the Lord provided but also the scapegoat and so much more.
I've come to fulfill the law of the prophets and not one jot or tittle shall be removed till all is fulfilled.

Well said.

The why as to churches not teaching the NT is very Jewish, as you said, is because such churches extricate the faith from having any semblance of relationship , as a new testament from God, to that of the old one from God to the Jews who betrayed him when he arrived as Christ.

Replacement Theology.

As a child I sat in the pews of such churches. Baptist churches.

I had no idea about RT at that time but, I can still recall pastors being very clear as to how our faith is in no wise still relational to that of Judaism. And because the Jews "killed God".

[
amen it’s what we see in the law that witnesses of Christ in a figure the Jews were looking at the works of the law and couldn’t hear the witness we can because Jesus has unveiled it all, that was shown as a pattern to Moses.

really good post there and informed correctly in my view.

we can look at the law as if that’s the real deal , or we can look at it through the eyes of Christ and the gospel fulfillment and know the truth of the patterns and figures in the law and foretellings of the prophets

it’s a balance not of whether the law is bad or good it’s holy , but it’s a matter of if we look at it as if it is our law and our works , or if it is witnessing the truth of Christ beforehand who came and fulfilled it.

When we realize he has fulfilled the law and prophets it becomes a clear witness of Christ always in figures even baptism is a figure in the law as is the spiritual drink they got from the rock Moses smote

“And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭10:2-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

there was always a testimony even the snoring of the rock spoke of the snoring of Christ that would give water of life and meat for life regarding the quail he gave , the water from the rock

“But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of.

Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:32, 34‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and drink

“In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”
‭‭John‬ ‭7:37-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬


they encountered Christ through a physical way drinking water from a rock as a miracle but it was a foretelling of what Christ fulfilled in the gospel giving the spirit same with the bread from heaven even all the way back to the tree of life being a figure of the gospel whereas the law a figure of the good and evil mixture of knowledge

Tree of the knowledge of good and evil

“See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; In that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:15-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

tree of certain life based on him

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

One argument I heard recently made by a modern day “rabbi” against Jesus being the messiah is found in Deuteronomy 21:22-23

A Man Hanged on a Tree Is Cursed

[22] “And if a man has committed a crime punishable by death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, [23] his body shall not remain all night on the tree, but you shall bury him the same day, for a hanged man is cursed by God. You shall not defile your land that the LORD your God is giving you for an inheritance.

Muslims will use this approach as well…

"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:" - Galatians 3:13 KJV