Could the tribulation start this year?

Sorry, don't know why they won't "link"? Let's try this:

God's Approval/TWO Different Gospels
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...al-two-different-gospels.197854/#post-4506994

Distinctions In God's Two Different Programs: Prophecy vs Mystery!
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...een-prophecy-and-mystery.197650/#post-4498578

Enjoy!

You don't have to commit yourself to Hal Lindsey's timeline. It was he who claimed "this generation" in Matt 24 referred to the last generation, and to the restoration of Israel in 1948. He claimed that a generation is 40 years, based on the 40 years in the Wilderness. But 1988 came and went, with some foolish predictors, like Chuck Smith, claiming Jesus would come and Rapture away the Church. It didn't happen!

So, the guideposts were altered and extended, to allow for a 70 year generation. From 1948 to 2000 is 52 years. And it's now 2021. That's 21 + 52 years = 73 years. Again, you missed the mark! When will they stop living by false teaching?

The generation Jesus spoke of was the generation of his apostles, who would see the "Abomination of Desolation," the Roman Army, who would surround Jerusalem and ultimately destroy the temple. That happened in 70 AD, in the generation of Jesus' apostles.

Modern prophecy interpreters don't like this because they want to use the signs of the Olivet Discourse to make predictions in our own time. They want to be "crystal ball readers," apparently? They want to get people excited about a sudden Rapture of the Church? This isn't what biblical prophecy is all about.

No, the festivals corresponded to Israel's exodus from Egypt. That's when Israel's Passover date was set. Passover only ever applied to Israel, and not to anybody else.

The Feast of Tabernacles corresponded to Israel exodus in the desert, living in shelters. This applied to Israel and to no one else.

I don't agree. The Jewish People initially embraced Jesus, but soon departed from him. They wanted an external religion, and not a religion of the heart, dependent on God for their spirituality. In that case, they have to obey God's word, and not just do their own thing.

I very much agree with this! Jews, though still under judgment for their place in Judaism, should not be judged as if they were 1st century Pharisees. Jesus said "they know not what they do." There remains a basis for their forgiveness, despite their national punishment. They have lost their land for nearly 2000 years. Returning to their land is a blessing, but the people remain spiritually lost, and largely indifferent to the need for national repentance.

Yes, Jesus fulfilled the Law by dying outside of the scope of the Law, to allow those who failed under the Law to be saved through a different system--a system I call "mercy." Thanks for the conversation.

Thanks, I can get it now. I think my antivirus program sometimes interferes with links too much! I can see it now, and will get back with you.

I do not believe that when Jesus spoke of a generation that time was a factor since so many years have passed, but simply saying those who may see the beginning of the tribulation could possibly see the end.

Matthew 24:34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place.

You believe that, but is it true? No. Jesus said "this generation" will see, not the end, but the fall of the temple, and an accompanying dispersal of Israel to the ends of the earth. You will find that clearly spelled out in Luke 21. It concerned *Jesus' generation,* and not the end of the age. But the tribulation Israel entered into at that time was to last until the end of the age.

Hello randk,

Just fyi, "This generation" is directly linked with everything that Jesus' mentioned in Matt.24, i.e. those signs that must take place, including the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments revealed in Revelation. To be clear, Jesus was not referring to His generation when He said, "this generation."

As terrible as the destruction of the temple was, it does not fit the criteria of the plagues that will take place leading up to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. Since these events will take place within that last seven year period, then it could not have been speaking about the generation that the Lord spoke from.

I think what is happening in Afghanistan is a warning to all of us about what will happen during the tribulation.

I'm afraid we're at odds on this, brother--we'll have to agree to disagree. I think there is some value to what you're saying, and I won't spend time explaining where we agree. But the major point we disagree on--I do believe Jesus was speaking of the generation of his apostles quite literally. There are several reasons for this, but I'm confident you've heard them. I guess your own arguments against this override my arguments for this?

Yes, the argument is that this is the "worst" punishment in Israel's history--therefore, it has to be worse than the 70 AD catastrophe. But my argument is not this. My argument is that what makes this "great tribulation" the worst in Israel's history is the fact it is the *longest* in Israel's history, encompassing the entire NT age! Furthermore, the sheer length of time is a threat to Israel's continuing existence as a people. It threatens the state of their national existence, as well.

What you are doing is believing and repeating a well known false teaching, which I have contended against for many years. They attempt to do this with the scripture which says, "There be some here who will not taste of death until they see the Son of Man come in His glory," stating this as proof that the Lord returned before those people died. However, they misinterpret that scripture as well, not understanding it.

"Then Jesus told them a parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31So also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. 32Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. 33Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away."

When you see the trees blossoming = Summer is near

When you see all of these things happening = The end of the age is near

If I was to paraphrase:

"Truly I tell you, this generation (the one where all those events take place) will not pass away until all these things have happened."

The question of Matt.24 by the disciples was "what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age." The end of the age is when the Lord visually and physically returns to the earth to bring the age to its end.

As I said, all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments mentioned in Revelation, but are not mentioned in detail in Matthew, are also those events which must take place, since the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments must all take place leading up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. It's just a matter of considering all of the scriptures together to get the full picture. And I can assure you that the world has not yet seen any of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

The setting up of the abomination is one of those signs that must take place during the generation that Jesus is speaking of, which has not been fulfilled. Nether is the establishment of that seven year covenant with Israel. Furthermore, Jesus quoting of Daniel 9:27 sets the time period as being seven years in length, with the abomination being set up in the middle of the seven years. It is at the end of that seven years when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.

Another event is the Lord's literal return to the earth, where all those on the earth will mourn when they see the Lord arriving on the clouds of heaven. Surely this has never happened and yet it is a part of those events which must take place.

Therefore, "this generation" is the generation where all of those events will begin to take place within that last seven year period, with Jesus' return to the earth bringing the age to an end.

well, it should be. What makes it the 'Great Tribulation' is as follows:

* During the first 3 1/2 of the seven year period, Israel will have rebuilt her temple and will have been making sacrifices and offerings.

* In the middle of the seven years, the ruler/antichrist, will put a stop to Israel's worship and will set up that abomination, i.e. that idolatrous object of worship which will be set up in the holy place within the temple. And is when the man of lawlessness/antichrist will stand in the temple proclaiming himself to be God.

* In the middle of the seven years is when the desolation takes place, which is when Israel flees out into the wilderness as described in Matt.24:15-22 and Rev.12:6, 14.

* It is also the time when the beast will make war and conquer the Gentile saints during the last 3 1/2 years (Rev.13:5-7)

* And at the same time that everything else is taking place above, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will have been on-going.

In Revelation 1:19, John was told to write:

What you have seen = Everything written from Rev.1:1 to 1:19

What is now = Represented by the letters to the seven churches, which also represents the entire church age

What will take place later = Everything that takes place after the "what is now," i.e. everything that takes place after the church period.

That said, we are still living in the "what is now" portion of what John was told to write. Once the Lord appears in the air and gathers the church, then the "What must take place later" will begin. Regarding this, in Rev.4:1 John hears the voice of the Lord which sounds like a trumpet saying "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this," which is synonymous with "what must take place later." Therefore, everything written after Revelation chapter 4 is yet future, with the majority of the information detailing the time of God's wrath, the Day of the Lord. It is this time of wrath that Jesus is referring to when He says:

"For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short."

Rev 14 is prewrath/postrib.

It is the gathering of jews.

Pretrib rapture of the church/bride is solid bible.

It says " world" ....not israel.

What a convoluted and contradicted idea.

Except there are NO verses that show Jesus taking any resurrected and raptued believers to heaven.

Hmm.

What is actually "solid Bible" is the fact that the rapture occurs at the Second Advent.

2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (Second Advent) and our being gathered to him (rapture), we ask you, brothers and sisters,

Before we get to the undesirable place of calling each other "false teachers," why don't we just admit that good Christians disagree on such things? Jesus coming in his glory can be viewed as appearing on the Mt. of Transfiguration, as rising from the dead, and appearing after his ascension in 70 AD as a revelation of judgment, or as in his 2nd Coming. It is an interesting claim on Jesus' part, but I think it's striking that Jesus said this and the Mt. of Transfiguration experience took place, which may be a preview of his glorious coming. It could also be his coming in judgment against Jerusalem in 70 AD, as the Preterists say. I don't really know, but this seems to be suggested in Luke 17.30.

Jesus said the Kingdom of God was near in his own time! This was not the end of the age, but the nearness of his Kingdom, which would be made possible by his death on the cross.

The signs Jesus gave were preliminary to the judgment against Jerusalem in 70 AD. Jesus said they would all take place in his generation--not the 2nd Coming, but the signs heralding the fall of the temple. That was the main focus of this prophecy.

Jesus was asked about the end of the age--he did not say that the end of the age would be part of his prophecy of the destruction of the temple! Jesus proceeded to compare what would happen in his own generation to what would happen at the end of the age. The connection is one of judgment. Jesus' death and glorification would proceed to bring judgment to Israel and to all nations, but would be somewhat delayed while the Gospel is preached to all nations. Only the signs of the impending destruction of Jerusalem would happen in his generation. *All* of those signs would take place in the generation of his apostles, along with the destruction of Jerusalem itself. And that came true--Jerusalem was overthrown in 70 AD.

The signs Jesus gave his Disciples had to do with Israel and were given *before* the Gospel expanded to include the nations. When the book of Revelation was given, the Gospel had already been expanded to include the nations. So the signs given to Israel in Jesus' Olivet Discourse were different and applied to Israel. The signs given to John in the book of Revelation are for all nations, including Israel. They are similar, but not the same signs.

Dan 9 has to do with the earthly ministry of Jesus, and with the succeeding fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Jesus said the temple would fall, and so he referred to the same in Dan 9. The AoD, therefore, is the Roman Army that destroyed Jerusalem and the temple.

There is no 7 year covenant yet to take place in the future. The covenant was for the completion of the 70th Week. The 69th Week preceded the period of Jesus' ministry. Therefore, the 70th Week covenant was Jesus' confirmation of God's promises to Israel, to accomplish the 6 things mentioned in Dan 9.24.

I agree this is the conversion of the Jews to Christ at his 2nd Coming.

No. See above for an alternative rendering. Hal Lindsey had it all wrong, in my view.

There is no mention of a *first* 3.5 year period. There is no mention of a temple *rebuilding.* Offerings ceased when Jesus died on the cross, and the veil was rent.

You are referring to the prophecy of Antiochus 4, where he placed an idol in the temple. He also was an AoD, but not in the same way as Dan 9 described it, as a military assault on "the city and the sanctuary." The Roman Army were desolators and abominable pagans. The AoD was not an idol, but an Army.

In the middle of the 70th Week of Dan 9 offering ceased. That took place at the death of Christ.

There is no *last* 3.5 years. There is only one set of 3.5 years, based on Dan 7. Every mention of 3.5 years in the book of Revelation is a reference back to Dan 7.

On the contrary, the book of Revelation in its entirety was written for the Church! Nothing is said about *after the church period.* It only says that another vision was given John after his words given to the 7 churches.

That address was given to Israel before the NT Great Commission. This was only given to the nation Israel. Israel's national existence would be threatened by the longest punishment in its history, encompassing the entire NT era, stretching from the fall of the temple, stone by stone, to the return of the Son of Man in glory at the end of the age. Then Israel will be restored.

The Church can learn from this by applying it to their own nations. When Christian nations fall, as Israel did, Christians can expect the same tribulation experience.

You are obviously set on your interpretations, which according to scripture, I find to be false. I have already gone over this information that you replied to, but you distort and circumvent it. Therefore, we agree to disagree.

Not a problem. I'm just doing what I think the Lord wants me to do. Sometimes I'm right. Sometimes I'm wrong. I'm trying to listen...

“Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭14:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

tribulation is perpetual in every generation at times it is high as in the days of the slaughter of the church in Jerusalem and Rome , other times tribulation is low and the world comes to a slowing and another wave of tribulation waits from the early church to even today there are many beheaded or killed for witnessing the gospel

looking at places like Syria and the many middle eastern countries in terrible anguish and destruction around the globe there’s much tribulation now and mankind always has some tribulation happening we don’t see it always because it’s around the world from nation to nation they rose and fall with time as it passes

Egypt ruled and fell , Africa , Jerusalem , Babylon , Persia , Greece , Rome , they all rose up and then we’re laid low through tribulation

the world is in tribulation always but in the end we aren’t going to even know it it’s going to seem normal like right now the world is upside down and in turmoil wars everywhere every evil under the sun fills the earth the innocent destroyed by the wicked constantly here on earth

in the end it’s going to seem like another day the tribulation has infused itself into the earth and we think it’s normal

martyrs across the globe are killed every year spreading the gospel into unknown places and desolate nations turned to other gods Islam , buhddism , communism , all the thousands of religions and heresies are drowning the world as in the flood and we are waiting for something we can’t see is already happening

“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭5:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭6:11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Like a thief it will come unaware we will be if we don’t hear the truth

I disagree. I think when the 70th week begins, most believers in the world will know. Why? Because it will be after the rapture and then after the great, worldwide earthquake of the 6th seal that kicks off the Day of the Lord. The next events will be the first trumpet judgments. They will be very hard to miss, as will this great earthquake.

Jesus coming to the clouds for the rapture: SECOND coming.
Jesus coming to set foot on earth: THIRD coming.

The rapture comes before wrath, else why would Paul mention the Day of the Lord (and the start of wrath) just three verses after His classic rapture verse in 1 thes. 4? It will certainly be a coming, because Paul used that word, but it is ONLY to the air, to return back to heaven. The church has no appointments with His wrath - a verse in the same passage.

Just a thought: if the rapture was as you imagine: how will the church get to the marriage and supper which takes place before Christ comes and takes place in heaven?

Another thought: the sheep at the sheep and goat judgment are natural people - flesh and blood bodies: where will they come from if all the righteous are rapture just before this?

Sorry, but Revelation 14 speaks of a time just shortly after the man of sin will enter the temple - the moment the week is divided. In other words, shortly after the midpoint of the week.
In comparison, wrath begins at the 6th seal before any part of the 70th week. (the week begins at the 7th seal.)

Revelation 14 also shows us that the days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of can't start until after God gives His warning not to take the mark. Then chapter 15 shows us the beheaded beginning to show up in heaven.