Could the tribulation start this year?

[ZNP]

No flights to heaven have been scheduled.

Unless you can find a verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

But, of course, there aren't any. So, no flights.

Just some "flights of fancy".

Wow, put that on your signature or tag line.

 

[Blain]

No flights to heaven have been scheduled.

Unless you can find a verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

But, of course, there aren't any. So, no flights.

Just some "flights of fancy".

I fancy a flight with peanuts have you ever had the peanuts in an airplane? I don't know where they get them but I can live on those

 

[FreeGrace2]

The task has not been taken away from the Jews, but away from the Jewish *nation.* Jews are still part of the Church today when they accept their Messiah Jesus. There has always been a remnant of Jews in the Church. So you can't say the Gospel has been given exclusively to the Gentiles, and not to the Jews!

Agreed!

It is no different with Israel. Israel is no longer a nation of God, and is certainly not a Christian nation. But it is still in the dispensation of the Church Age! That's the problem with Dispensationalism--it is extremely confusing, and really isn't even true. It is, at best, half true, and that isn't close enough.

The confusion is probably due to the various "explanations" of it. To me, it is a simple explanation of the history of humanity in successive time periods.

The Scriptures say that Jesus will come back in the same way he left. He will come back to Israel, as promised, to restore that nation to godliness. But I believe he is also coming back for the world, to restore Christian nations.

Could you expand on the idea of "restoring Christian nations", and how that fits in with end time prophesy? Thanks.

In the OT the focus was on Israel exclusively, and those promises have not gone away.

Right. I believe those promises have to do with the Millennium.

But in the NT God's promises are extended to Christian nations.

Certainly God promises are for saved people, whether Jew or Gentile. I am not aware of promises to 'nations'. Could you cite some?

Not just Israel will be restored in the Millennial, even though the OT prophets focused on Israel at a time when only Israel was living for God.

I agree there will be nations during the Millennium. The Bible says that Christ will "rule the nations". And this reign will be with a "rod of iron". Doesn't sound like Christian nations to me.

Do Christian nations need to be ruled with a rod of iron?

We have to be clear what we're talking about, whether "removing bias" or "removing racial distinctions?" As I said, the qualification for Salvation was said not to be race-based, by Paul. Paul thus removed "racial bias." But he did *not* remove racial distincitons.

I'm not sure about distinctions, but recall what else Paul removed:
"Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all."

Here, Paul includes human anatomy and human condition.

Yes, some Jews have been laying plans for a restoration of the Law for decades. It doesn't seem possible to me. There are a lot of secret religious organizations who think they are controlling world events. It's not real. Again, a rebuilt Jewish temple would disallow any ruler to take up residence there!

I don't think the beast intends to live in the temple. He only uses it to announce his deity over Israel.

Antiochus 4 did *not* take up residence in the temple, nor make it his throne room. And yet Paul is saying just that, that Antichrist will take up residence *in the temple,* proclaiming himself Deity.

Where is this found in the Bible?

That just can't happen with a reconstructed OT temple!

Frankly, there's a lot of things that we just don't know what will or not happen.

The second the Antichrist removes the ark of the covenant it ceases to be a Jewish temple.

The 3rd temple isn't relevant anyway.

But I think Paul is talking about a metaphorical declaration, that Antichrist is assuming a place in God's heavenly temple.

Could be that as well.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"""1. no verses show Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven."""

Unbelievably false and you have ALREADY benn debunked in that baloney.

It's really tiring to hear all your whining. Show the verse where Jesus takes all resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

You know the drill: put up or _______ ______!!!

 

[randyk]

Agreed!
The confusion is probably due to the various "explanations" of it. To me, it is a simple explanation of the history of humanity in successive time periods.
Could you expand on the idea of "restoring Christian nations", and how that fits in with end time prophesy? Thanks.
Right. I believe those promises have to do with the Millennium.
Certainly God promises are for saved people, whether Jew or Gentile. I am not aware of promises to 'nations'. Could you cite some?

God promised Abraham that he would become a father of "many nations." Jesus also said, at a time when Israel was failing as a nation again, that the Kingdom would be taken from them and given to a *nation* worthy of it. That "kingdom" was the Roman Empire.

I agree there will be nations during the Millennium. The Bible says that Christ will "rule the nations". And this reign will be with a "rod of iron". Doesn't sound like Christian nations to me.

Do Christian nations need to be ruled with a rod of iron?

I'm not sure about distinctions, but recall what else Paul removed:
"Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all."

Here, Paul includes human anatomy and human condition.

Paul made racial *distinctions.* He removed racial *qualifications.* I can't state that enough in this discussion.

I don't think the beast intends to live in the temple. He only uses it to announce his deity over Israel.

I suppose it depends on what Paul meant by the Antichrist "sitting" in the temple of God? If he was merely making a proclamation of Deity, he might *stand* and make that proclamation. But to "sit" seems like taking up permanent residence?

Where is this found in the Bible?
Frankly, there's a lot of things that we just don't know what will or not happen.
The 3rd temple isn't relevant anyway.

That's the point. The fact that Antichrist declares Deity is what's relevant. We are to follow the true God. It is a deception of the nations, and not just a deception of the Jews. Hence, he assumes God's temple in heaven, and not an earthly temple. Paul knew the temple of Herod was condemned in his own generation. It was going away until "the ag of the Gentiles is done." It can't be rebuilt, in my view.

Here's the problem as I see it. Christians have long read the Scriptures as a book about Israel exclusively. So Dispensationalists want everything in history to eventually turn back to Israel, where it began.

I don't find this to be true. God will for sure return to finish what He started with Israel. But He started with Israel to end up with the whole world, with many nations, and not just go back to having a single nation!

On the other hand we have those in the Early Church who failed to see any hope anymore with the nation Israel. So they developed, with Amillennialism an anti-nationalistic view of Salvation, in which only individuals get saved, and nations remain corrupt and outside of the scope of God's plan.

I don't agree with this. God started with a nation. And even if the whole nation didn't consist 100% of true believers, and even though the nation always ultimately failed, this didn't mean that God failed with the nation. God has used the nation to produce a *society,* in which individual believers can thrive and be blessed. And God hasn't stopped doing that in the NT. He said he would temporarily remove Israel from this group of godly nations, but would continue to use nations to advance the Gospel.

In the NT we have had many Christian nations. Like Israel, they all ultimately fall. However, they have been used by God, and God can, and will, restore them. God's plan is no longer focused exclusively on the one nation, Israel. But He has planned to stretch out his tent stakes to incorporate all nations in His plan of salvation. And He has not stopped using nations, nor will He leave Israel out of it in perpetuity.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Where Dispensationalism goes wrong is in its strict differentiation between ages of Israel and the Church.

This is the ONLY Scriptural theology That has made THE MOST SENSE to me,
solving a Multitude of Confusion...

Things that Are DIFFERENT Certainly CANNOT "be THE SAME," or can they? Really?

 

[Magenta]

It's really tiring to hear all your whining. Show the verse where Jesus takes all resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

You know the drill: put up or _______ ______!!!

Shouldn't it be, ___ __ ?

 

[ZNP]

Shouldn't it be, ___ __ ?

Put up or rise up?

Put up or look up?

 

[randyk]

This is the ONLY Scriptural theology That has made THE MOST SENSE to me,
solving a Multitude of Confusion...

Things that Are DIFFERENT Certainly CANNOT "be THE SAME," or can they? Really?

You're arguing with a truism, that things that are the same cannot be different! Of course that's true. But I'm trying to argue that the categories created by Dispensationalism separate things into different compartments when some of those compartments are not different at all. So Dispensationalism is saying some things are different when they are not. The differences that I do acknowledge are not confined by the "dispensations" that Dispensationalism says should confine them.

For example, I acknowledge the difference between the Church and Israel. One is an international group, whereas the other is strictly a national group. I also acknowledge the difference between national Israel being presently under a curse while the nations that represent Christianity today are under a blessing.

These differences do not fit neatly into dispensations including 1) the NT age up until the 7 years of Antichrist, 2) the 7 years of Antichrist, and 3) the Millennium. All 3 "dispensations" include Israel and the Church. The entire NT age is characterized by nations that rise and fall, including Israel and the Christian nations. The fall of Israel, as a nation, therefore, does not preclude it from being included in the NT age up until the reign of Antichrist!

As a side note, I do not believe the reign of Antichrist is a 7 year period. It is strictly a 3.5 year period. Nor do I think the period of Antichrist's reign is the 70th Week of Dan 9. That Week was concluded with the death of Christ and the end of OT offering.

To punctuate and to emphasize this conclusion of the 70 Weeks of Daniel, we were told the city of Jerusalem and the OT temple would fall. This was the "Abomination of Desolation," the Roman Army that destroyed Jerusalem 70-135 AD, leading to the age-long Great Tribulation of the Jewish People.

It consisted of the loss of a homeland for the Jewish People, as well as a rejection of the Christians among them. The Church can learn from this in their own post-Christian nations!

To reiterate, I acknowledge that these are legitimate categories of time, and can be expressed as "dispensations." They are the NT age up until the reign of Antichrist, the reign of Antichrist, and the Millennium. However, as Dispensationalism defines them, they do not express separate realities outside of the fact they are different time periods. As such, we should not express them as "dispensations," because that is misleading.

 

[FreeGrace2]

God promised Abraham that he would become a father of "many nations." Jesus also said, at a time when Israel was failing as a nation again, that the Kingdom would be taken from them and given to a *nation* worthy of it. That "kingdom" was the Roman Empire.

Romans 4 explains that Abraham was the father of many nations when it was written. iow, when Gentiles of many different nations believe on Christ, Abraham is their father, by way of faith.

Paul made racial *distinctions.* He removed racial *qualifications.* I can't state that enough in this discussion.

To "qualify" generally means something that must be done to meet a criteria. No one qualifies for ethnicity. They are born with it.

They don't qualify for it.

I suppose it depends on what Paul meant by the Antichrist "sitting" in the temple of God? If he was merely making a proclamation of Deity, he might *stand* and make that proclamation. But to "sit" seems like taking up permanent residence?

I don't read it that way. I only see the beast (ac) making his arrogant and blasphemous announcement in the temple.

That's the point. The fact that Antichrist declares Deity is what's relevant. We are to follow the true God. It is a deception of the nations, and not just a deception of the Jews. Hence, he assumes God's temple in heaven, and not an earthly temple.

Remember, the Tribulation is called "Jacob's Trouble". Jer 30:7

Paul knew the temple of Herod was condemned in his own generation. It was going away until "the ag of the Gentiles is done." It can't be rebuilt, in my view.

The 3rd temple won't be Herod's.

Here's the problem as I see it. Christians have long read the Scriptures as a book about Israel exclusively. So Dispensationalists want everything in history to eventually turn back to Israel, where it began.

Since Jesus Christ returns to Israel and saves the nation from total destruction, which has long been Satan's objective, it seems fairly obvious that the Tribulation centers on Isrsael. Plus it being called "Jacob's Trouble".

I don't find this to be true. God will for sure return to finish what He started with Israel. But He started with Israel to end up with the whole world, with many nations, and not just go back to having a single nation!

Right. Jesus will rule the nationS with a rod of iron.

[QUOET]I don't agree with this. God started with a nation. And even if the whole nation didn't consist 100% of true believers, and even though the nation always ultimately failed, this didn't mean that God failed with the nation.[/QUOTE]
I didn't say anything about God failing with the nation. Clearly the nation of Israel failed God.

God has used the nation to produce a *society,* in which individual believers can thrive and be blessed. And God hasn't stopped doing that in the NT. He said he would temporarily remove Israel from this group of godly nations, but would continue to use nations to advance the Gospel.

Of course. God's plan for mankind includes government, for societal order and safety. Romans 13

In the NT we have had many Christian nations. Like Israel, they all ultimately fall. However, they have been used by God, and God can, and will, restore them.

I don't find anything specific about God "restoring nations" when Jesus comes back. Again, he will "rule with a rod of iron". Doesn't sound to me like Jesus ruling over nice peaceful nations.

God's plan is no longer focused exclusively on the one nation, Israel. But He has planned to stretch out his tent stakes to incorporate all nations in His plan of salvation.

Of course.

And He has not stopped using nations, nor will He leave Israel out of it in perpetuity.

Of course.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
It's really tiring to hear all your whining. Show the verse where Jesus takes all resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

You know the drill: put up or _______ ______!!!

Shouldn't it be, ___ __ ?

Isn't everyone familiar with the phrase, "put up or shut up"?

I just didn't want to sound rude or too blunt.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Put up or rise up?

Put up or look up?

See post 331

 

[Magenta]

You know the drill: put up or _______ ______!!!

Isn't everyone familiar with the phrase, "put up or shut up"?

I just didn't want to sound rude or too blunt.

Yes, yes, but... you had too many spaces for that, as I showed you

Just a little Monday morning humor...

 

[randyk]

Romans 4 explains that Abraham was the father of many nations when it was written. iow, when Gentiles of many different nations believe on Christ, Abraham is their father, by way of faith.

But that's not what the passage is saying, in context. It is saying *nations* will result, not just "nationalities," or *ethnicities.*

To "qualify" generally means something that must be done to meet a criteria. No one qualifies for ethnicity. They are born with it.

They don't qualify for it.

You misunderstand. I'm saying that Paul denies ethnicity is a qualification for Salvation. I'm not talking about qualifying to *have an ethnicity!*

I don't read it that way. I only see the beast (ac) making his arrogant and blasphemous announcement in the temple.

I suppose it's what you want to read into it. I see it in context as a statement of Deity by *sitting* in the temple. That is taking up residence, and not just making a statement. But it's a little obscure, I think.

Remember, the Tribulation is called "Jacob's Trouble". Jer 30:7

That's debatable. I've been hearing that "Jacob's Trouble" is the "Great Tribulation" for about 50 years. And nothing in that passage is very specific about a reign of Antichrist, nor a 3.5 years period of time, nor about a special dispensation of national Israel gradually coming back to Christ. Rather, it is a general statement that Israel will fall, as usual, and will have to come back to faith, as a nation, through trouble.

The 3rd temple won't be Herod's.

Clearly! We agree on something!

Since Jesus Christ returns to Israel and saves the nation from total destruction, which has long been Satan's objective, it seems fairly obvious that the Tribulation centers on Isrsael. Plus it being called "Jacob's Trouble".

"Jacob's Trouble" does not detail any of this, and could be applied equally to the Babylonian Captivity as to the end of the age! It tells us *nothing* about the endtimes, except that Israel's punishment will continue up until the end of the age.

OT prophecies largely focused on Israel because only Israel was the Promised Nation at that time. But once Jesus expanded God's People to the Roman Empire and beyond, Israel ceased to be the *only nation* God has called. Israel will indeed be restored, as promised. But those same promises now apply to "many nations," as per God's promise to Abraham.

I don't find anything specific about God "restoring nations" when Jesus comes back. Again, he will "rule with a rod of iron". Doesn't sound to me like Jesus ruling over nice peaceful nations.

God promised Israel restoration. By extension God's promises to Israel extends to other nations that, like Israel, embrace God in covenant. It stands to reason that when God restores Israel He will also restore Christian nations. I agree that there is little on this in the NT Scriptures. But that's because no Gentile nation had yet become a Christian nation!

 

[pottersclay]

All the nations were "created by God". Acts 17:26


Why does the throne need a temple?


The 12 were chosen to "make disciples and teach them everything I have taught you".


Again, all nations were created by God. Israelites were chosen by God.

Israelites were created by God. There was no such thing as a jew in abraham's time God breathed and promised him that he would be a father of many nations.
No nation in history was created in such a manner.
God was establishing a nation to himself and a physical blood line to follow.

My point was that all 12 were jews preaching how to be christian

It is true that all nations were created by God as you and I know all things were created by God . That's painting with broad strokes my friend.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

You're arguing with a truism, that things that are the same cannot be different! Of course that's true. But I'm trying to argue that the categories created by Dispensationalism separate things into different compartments when some of those compartments are not different at all. So Dispensationalism is saying some things are different when they are not. The differences that I do acknowledge are not confined by the "dispensations" that Dispensationalism says should confine them.

For example, I acknowledge the difference between the Church and Israel. One is an international group, whereas the other is strictly a national group. I also acknowledge the difference between national Israel being presently under a curse while the nations that represent Christianity today are under a blessing.

These differences do not fit neatly into dispensations including 1) the NT age up until the 7 years of Antichrist, 2) the 7 years of Antichrist, and 3) the Millennium. All 3 "dispensations" include Israel and the Church. The entire NT age is characterized by nations that rise and fall, including Israel and the Christian nations. The fall of Israel, as a nation, therefore, does not preclude it from being included in the NT age up until the reign of Antichrist!

As a side note, I do not believe the reign of Antichrist is a 7 year period. It is strictly a 3.5 year period. Nor do I think the period of Antichrist's reign is the 70th Week of Dan 9. That Week was concluded with the death of Christ and the end of OT offering.

To punctuate and to emphasize this conclusion of the 70 Weeks of Daniel, we were told the city of Jerusalem and the OT temple would fall. This was the "Abomination of Desolation," the Roman Army that destroyed Jerusalem 70-135 AD, leading to the age-long Great Tribulation of the Jewish People.

It consisted of the loss of a homeland for the Jewish People, as well as a rejection of the Christians among them. The Church can learn from this in their own post-Christian nations!

To reiterate, I acknowledge that these are legitimate categories of time, and can be expressed as "dispensations." They are the NT age up until the reign of Antichrist, the reign of Antichrist, and the Millennium. However, as Dispensationalism defines them, they do not express separate realities outside of the fact they are different time periods. As such, we should not express them as "dispensations," because that is misleading.

Thanks So Much, Randy. I am Not Much of a prophecy expert, so, can't argue with you there

The Differences I have noted:

God's Approval/TWO Different Gospels
Distinctions In God's Two Different Programs: Prophecy vs Mystery!

Grace, Peace, Mercy, and Love to you and yours...

 

[randyk]

Thanks So Much, Randy. I am Not Much of a prophecy expert, so, can't argue with you there

Not a problem. I believe you're Postrib? If so, we're on the same page there. I believe even expert Robert Gundry holds to a somewhat-Dispensationalist form of Postrib--at least he includes some elements of Dispensationalism in his Postrib arguments, although he would reject Dispensationalism as a system.

The Differences I have noted:

God's Approval/TWO Different Gospels
Distinctions In God's Two Different Programs: Prophecy vs Mystery!

Grace, Peace, Mercy, and Love to you and yours...

I'm unable to link onto those titles, if they're intended to be hyperlinks? I'm curious what they mean?

 

[pottersclay]

You may not have heard some of this before, but you should know that your info is based in Dispensationalism, which is a popular modern eschatology which contains a number of truths, as well as a number of errors. I can personally buy into some of its truths, but I've spent a lot of time correcting some of its errors.

Israel is indeed a time-clock, but as I said, God is impartial, and chose only to begin with Israel, and not to end with Israel. His goal was to use Israel as a model of a godly nation, in order to reach out to all nations.

The parable of the fig tree was fulfilled in the 1st generation. I'm not a Preterist, but it is true. The focus of the Olivet Discourse was on the 1st generation, even though Jesus was asked what all of this had to do with the endtimes, as well. The question was: how can Jewish worship be destroyed and still bring about God's promises to the nation Israel?

Jesus' answer was that Jewish worship had to be destroyed because the nation Israel had failed under the covenant of Law. But there was hope through his mercy, which transcended the covenant of the Law.

Jesus said that some initial signs would indicate war is coming to Israel, to bring judgment to them. These signs would be like birth pains, indicating an imminent birth, but one that would essentially be still-born. It would be like a developing fig tree--one that would fail to bring forth fruit. It was the time of Israel's Messianic salvation, but it would be short lived for Israel because Israel would reject their own Messiah.

There will be no temple for Israel after this judgment, which took place in 70 AD. Israel would go through the great tribulation of the Jewish Diaspora until their Messiah returns to them. The new temple would be a heavenly temple, the temple of Jesus himself. The OT temple, with its worship, has been washed away.

All of the feasts of the Law have been fulfilled in Jesus. He fulfilled Passover by becoming the Lamb to forgive Israel's failure under the Law--a completely different kind of Passover lamb. He fulfilled Pentecost by establishing the means of the early harvest. And he fulfilled the Feast of Ingathering by establishing the means of the full harvest, through his eternal atonement on the cross.



This is false. The appointed times and sabbaths were given to Israel as part of their required worship. It was estabiished by the Law. Christ fulfilled them apart from the Law so that those who failed under the Law, ie Israel, would be able to transcend the Law and so be saved.

But yes, all this began with the Jewish People. The international Church is built on Jewish teaching, particularly as it was fulfilled in Jesus.



I agree with you that Replacement Theology is wrong. However, the Church was intended to transcend the Jewish Law, as also Israel was supposed to. As I said, Dispensationalism has mixed truth and error. It is for us to pick and choose what is correct and what is not, based on biblical teaching.

Israel did not begin to blossom till 1948 when in one day as the Lord spoke it became a nation.
The Lord stopped the scattering and began the regathering. Economically and technologically Israel has and will grow more to take center stage.
Now in the pslams we see the Lord has set a time on a person's life span. 70 yrs to 90.
(Not saying this is dogmatic but just my opinion) this is the generation jesus spoke about.
It's been 73 yrs so far but prophecy is developing and passing quickly....so could it be in our life time?

The appointed times and sabbaths are God's times not Israels.....in other words God gave them to Israel but they were already established. Genesis clearly states this.

What many fail to recognize is jesus had no beef with the Jewish people but a big problem with the Pharisees of the day which lorded over the common jews and added to the word of God. The same as today.
Oral law and written law disputes are very common in Israel today.
Much like the churches today having mormon and Jehovah witnessing as part of christianity you and I both know the truth.
The sad thing is that when it comes to the Jewish people everyone puts them in a box as a whole this is not so. There are many different sects .

Jesus said: not one jot or tittle shall be removed, altered , added, till all is fulfilled concerning the law, prophecy, ect. The law is perfect but left no escape, it is a school teacher to show that we are in need of a savior least all die in their sins.

Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world....was the most profound statement john the baptist ever made.
The Jewish people knew of the blotting out but never the removal....quite a statement.... praise God 😂😂

 

[FreeGrace2]

But that's not what the passage is saying, in context. It is saying *nations* will result, not just "nationalities," or *ethnicities.*

I take that as "people groups". iow, believers from many nationalities.

You misunderstand. I'm saying that Paul denies ethnicity is a qualification for Salvation. I'm not talking about qualifying to *have an ethnicity!*

I do agree that ethnicity is not a qualification for salvation.

I suppose it's what you want to read into it. I see it in context as a statement of Deity by *sitting* in the temple. That is taking up residence, and not just making a statement. But it's a little obscure, I think.

Yes, it is obscure enough to allow people to have differing opinions.

That's debatable. I've been hearing that "Jacob's Trouble" is the "Great Tribulation" for about 50 years. And nothing in that passage is very specific about a reign of Antichrist, nor a 3.5 years period of time, nor about a special dispensation of national Israel gradually coming back to Christ. Rather, it is a general statement that Israel will fall, as usual, and will have to come back to faith, as a nation, through trouble.

Yes, Jer 30:8 is somewhat obscure.

"Jacob's Trouble" does not detail any of this, and could be applied equally to the Babylonian Captivity as to the end of the age! It tells us *nothing* about the endtimes, except that Israel's punishment will continue up until the end of the age.

Amen that.

God promised Israel restoration. By extension God's promises to Israel extends to other nations that, like Israel, embrace God in covenant. It stands to reason that when God restores Israel He will also restore Christian nations. I agree that there is little on this in the NT Scriptures. But that's because no Gentile nation had yet become a Christian nation!

Yep.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Israelites were created by God.

If you are referring to circumcision, sure. But all of humanity came from God, actually.

There was no such thing as a jew in abraham's time God breathed and promised him that he would be a father of many nations.
No nation in history was created in such a manner.
God was establishing a nation to himself and a physical blood line to follow.

My point was that all 12 were jews preaching how to be christian

It is true that all nations were created by God as you and I know all things were created by God . That's painting with broad strokes my friend.

OK. I am not seeing a point though.