Is Obedience Necessary for Salvation?

How do we see God

By Works. or by Faith?

What is our hope in? Our works or our faith in Gods promise

Here you go with your works based save yourself ....... again.

There is no MUST About it.

A child of God WILL obey. They are made new creatures. The old things have passed away all things have become new.

One day you workers for will place your faith in God to complete what he started. Which paul said he will. And Allow God to work in you and stop trying to do it yourself so you can be saved.

You WILL FAIL

works + faith + willpower + blessings from God + Spirit of God in us speaking to us/ enlightening us + the Word of God outside enlightening us (the Bible + those led by the Spirit/ enlightened by God / taught by / obedient to/ changing into / growing / repenting / hoping for change / becoming as they follow / listen to / obey God (willpower/ obedience / resting ftom our own works -- doing God's work instead -- which is -- Christ in us -- law keeping, spirit following more and more until -- perfect fufillment and will power of the body, mind, and heart into perfect Christ- like- ness at whichever level we currently find ourselves at [Jacob's ladder])

this is how we see / come to know God / Christ

Dude, The pharisee was the most righteous people living in Christs day,

They obeyed the law. They taught the law.

They even went above the law (by adding all those other commands)[...]

[...]thats why they had the power they did.

focus on these scriptures my friend.

They didn't obey Moses. They rejected Christ because He was pointed them back to obedience to the law given through Moses.

◄ 2 Peter 3 ►

1This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The Day of the Lord
(Zephaniah 1:7-18; 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11)

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Final Exhortations
14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

[...]
ALL therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that OBSERVE
AND DO; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not!”

(Matthew_23:1-3!)

Seems Very problematic to me...

This is important because other believers - possible babes in Christ - are reading this. There are lives at stake.


You saying it AGAIN isn't proving it as true. Passage or verse anywhere, please.



False...and false. You've literally pit yourself against the word of God now, inadvertently.


Matthew 15:1-9 [brackets mine]
Then some Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2“Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They do not wash their hands before they eat.”

3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, [commandment] ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’

5 But you say [added tradition] that if anyone says to his father or mother, ‘Whatever you would have received from me is a gift devoted to God,’ he need not honor his father or mother with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah prophesied correctly about you:

8 ‘These people honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me. They worship Me in vain; they teach as doctrine the commandments of men.’


They taught their traditions, which nullified God's law.



^^^ This is the only true portion out of your entire post.

Deuteronomy 4:2
2 You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, so that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I am commanding you.

Deuteronomy 12:32
32 “Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take anything away from it.


They were in violation of the law by adding things. They were NOT more righteous for doing so.

- Self-righteousness = following my OWN rules to establish my own righteousness.

- God's righteousness = following God's rules as an established righteous person.



No. They had the power they did because following the exile of S. km. of Judah they were knowledgeable of the temple service, separating from the Hasmonian dynasty that rose to power following the Maccabees' revolt. They are EDOMITE descendants along with Herod (scripture says "idumean").

When the Messiah came He challenged their added traditions at every chance. The were called a brood of vipers (not from Abraham) who snuck in, which is the recurring theme all throughout scripture: from the snake sneaking into the garden in Genesis, to the Pharisees sneaking their changes into the law during the Messiah's ministry, through to the time of Paul where men "crept into" the faith causing the "mystery of lawlessness" to begin...until today where we're dealing with a twisting of Paul's words regarding the law.

The snakes always intend for us to break God's commands any way they can. That is their mission.

----

You have a grave misunderstanding of the problem the pharisees caused which is leading to an incorrect premise about the rest of it...which would be solved if we just read and accepted the gospel accounts, EG. They didn't obey the Almighty. They didn't obey Moses. They rejected Christ because He was pointed them back to obedience to the law given through Moses.


Can we?? Please???

The only danger is you my friend.

I am not talking abut what they did, I am talking about who they were. they were the religious doo gooders. the people who you could not see their sins, because they did them in secret. But when it came to reputation. Everyone knew when it came to obedeince according to the law. They were the ones who were top dogs.

The law condemned them Just like it does you my friend [it "DID" prior to belief in Messiah; it doesn't anymore]. Your trying to be good according to the law. [as instructed by Messiah]. You have failed [true] are failing [false, after Messiah] and will fail [if you believe this you deny Ephesians 4:13]. As Jesus said, NO ONE IS GOOD BUT GOD. [He said this during His ministry when someone called HIM "good". dwell on this for a moment. The Messiah claimed this about Himself.]

news flash, YOUR NOT GOD [curious where this came from]. According to the law. YOU ARE GUILTY [false, after faith is Messiah I am innocent...until I sin again].

I am not the one who keeps posting those who do good will be saved to try to support I must do good or I will not be saved. According to HIS interpretation.

the pharisees would be saved Because when it came to obeying the ten commands. No one did it better (except Christ of course. and the church AFTER Jesus left and they were filled with the spirit)

We are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. Not of works. lest anyone should boast.

what amazes me is you scream at the pharisee yet you are just like them. The only difference is you claim to believe in Christ. Well Gal 3 is your roadblock. Because just like these jews did. You claim you start in the spirit but must perfect in the flesh.

Good luck my friend. Good luck.

As Jesus said, Unless your righteous exceeds theirs, you have no hope. No one in Jesus day could claim this because if they did. Jesus would have told these people they saved themselves You can;t find it. because it is not true

Who is this "everyone"?? This is what I'm asking you. Where are you getting this additional information about them?? We're supposed to be going by the gospel accounts primarily. That's truth. Any secondary accounts must support the gospels. You're talking about reputation as understood by "everyone". Since when do the opinions of others establish truth over what the scriptures say?? "What do the scriptures (and specifically Messiah) say about this group" is the only thing you should be concerned about. The SCRIPTURES say they weren't righteous. You say they were (based on "everybody")???

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To the following quote, I added my responses in brackets.


Please read my responses ^^^ in your quote here. Hopefully, you'll begin to see the relationship between the Messiah, the Law and the believer. The law is the scales of justice...ever-present...weighing (and will weigh) all people.

View attachment 230229

Our sins weigh us down, and nothing we could do would "balance the scales" and lighten our load...until belief in Messiah. This is specifically His work in heaven, to set the balance right again. His work isn't "to obey FOR US". One of the many reasons He was obedient was because only a sinless person's blood can cleanse the tabernacle of sin and restore mankind's relationship to Almighty.

AFTER belief in Messiah we...WE are set right, WE are no longer guilty according to the law anymore...until we sin again. If one still believes they're guilty in the eyes of the law even after professing faith in Messiah then they don't actually have faith in Messiah, because that's what faith in Messiah affects...the cleansing of guilt (Hebrews 10:22)...until we sin again.

THE MESSIAH DID NOT COME TO ABOLISH THE LAW! He said this. He didn't come to get rid of the scales or to stop the balancing of them. His work wasn't against the law, it was to fulfill the law; it fulled up the other side of the scales that we're on and to clean off the sin weighing down our side...and we're expected to stop weighing down our side again with sin else it's a wasted effort from Messiah (Hebrew 10:29).



I'm not either. I'm copying & pasting scripture; literal verses and passages from multiple apostles and from Messiah that say one must do good.



This is what I mean...I posted Matthew 15:1-9 twice now - words from Messiah's own mouth - that literally proves the complete, 180 degree, opposite of this statement of yours in red, and yet you keep making it. Why don't you want to accept what the Messiah says over what you believe about the pharisees?



Again, you have a false premise because of a faulty understanding of the issue between the Messiah and the pharisees. And if you don't accept the gospel record then you refuse to accept anything other than your religious traditions regarding them. Ironic. The Messiah wasn't against the law. Paul wasn't against the law. The pharisees were but pretended like they weren't.


The Galatians' problem: They kept trying to "balance the scales" themselves.

Start back in Galatians 2:16-18
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.


...And again Galatians 2:16-18 [with my brackets based on what I've shared here about scales...]

16 Knowing that a man is not [balanced on the scales] by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be [balanced on the scales] by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be [balanced on the scales] .

17 But if, while we seek to be [balanced on the scales] by Christ, we ourselves also are found [weighing down the scales more], is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.


3 ideas in this passage:
- Faith in Christ
- Works of the law
- Sinning

The "Works of the law" are NOT "obeying the commandments"!! The "works of the law" were the shadow/mock efforts of "balancing the scales" that one was to do after one broke the commandments. These mock efforts prefigured Messiah's work of truly "balancing the scales".

When Messiah came He "balanced the scales", so those mock efforts - meant to "balance the scales" after one breaks the commandments - are no longer necessary to do. But at the same time one can't continue "weighing down the scales" while having faith in Messiah for "balancing the scales". One must obey the commandments, because the Messiah isn't the minister of sinners but of the righteous.

It is obedience that makes faith perfect. I know it is not widely accepted but it is true.

James 2:20-24
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

not sure about faults, but Christians in general can experience a great lack. the Bible tells us clearly that we know in part ........ and darkly.

many are seemingly unaware or unconcerned about this great possible lack of knowledge, real knowledge -- not supposed - taught doctrines.


consider the verse:


King James Bible

And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.


and also:


26How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.


for now we know in part. which part/s do we each know? which part/s do others here or elsewhere know -- that we (any of us) don't yet? how much we can learn -- from an other, any other out there -- what is missing from our own.

Ok. So you ASUME I do not know the word. I guess you think YOU DO?

Maybe you should read those passages to yourself my friend.

ALL SCRIPTURE IS GOD BREATHED and get what that scripture can do? MAKE A MAN COMPLETE IN GOD

If God, through his inspired word. Says the word can make us complete in him. Then I believe it.

While your right, there are many things we do not know and will never know until we see God face to face. What we NEED to know here on earth can be found in scripture Including how to be saved. By Gods mercy and Grace, Not of works Lest any one be puffed up in provide.

Here it is. Over and over from each writer, including Paul, as well as from the Messiah himself. It's posted in the Psalms as well as the final prophetic book. We have agency. We have a responsibility. It's not automatic. Once established as righteous by faith, we are meant to put forth effort...and the only way one doesn't accept this is if one doesn't accept all of the words written.

Our hope is based on the word,

Yes, I believe so. But many people believe obedience = works.

James 2:20

“But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?”

I think Paul speak to Christian in the church of Corinthian.