Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

Isaiah 27
12 In that day the Lord will thresh from the flowing Euphrates to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, Israel, will be gathered up one by one. 13 And in that day a great trumpet will sound. Those who were perishing in Assyria and those who were exiled in Egypt will come and worship the Lord on the holy mountain in Jerusalem.
Footnotes

That is the chronology or order of what will happen, that the rapture and second coming will happen after Israel come back to a nation after gone fore 2500 years back in 1948.

Just tell us the big picture

Matt 24 tell the detail that rapture and second coming happen immediately after tribulation

Rev 13 tell during the beast in power, Christian will be persecuted. So not rapture yet,
And where the verse that say only saints that repent during 7 years got will make war with the beast?

While it is true that as believers Jesus said that we would have trials and tribulations as a result of our faith and which has been happening from the on-set of the church until now. God's wrath is not the same as these trials and tribulations, because they will be direct plagues of wrath directly from God which believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer. But before God's wrath begins, according to the Lord's promise, He will descend from heaven to raise the dead and transform the living into their immortal and glorified bodies where we will meet Him in the air, where at which time He will take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us as revealed in John 14:1-3 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

What you are not understanding is that, after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath, there will be those who become believers at that time. Some will die during the first 3 1/2 years of the seven year period and others referred to as the great tribulation saints will be killed during the last 3 1/2 years under the beasts reign. This is not the church, but is that group from every nation, people, tribe and language who are introduced in Revelation 7:9-17. But because you don't understand this information, you are confusing the church with that group and applying those who are killed to the church.

God is not going to punish those who have believed in His Son and have been watching and ready for His appearing. The only reason that those other saints will be on the earth at that time, is because they will not have been believers prior to when Christ comes for His church.

1. You wrong that say 3 1/2 years is God wrath

Who persecute believer during that time?
The answer is Beast, not God. It is Beast wrath that persecute believer

2. Give me a verse that say only and ONLY saints that accept the Lord during get will war against the beast?

Hi TMS,

The answer is 'Yes!' And because with the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and whatever plagues the two witnesses bring, this world will be no place to live in even if one were protected by God. One comes to this understanding when doing a detailed study on the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. By the time the seven years is up the population of the earth will have been decimated and all human government dismantled in preparation for the Lord's millennial kingdom. Daniel prophesies about this:

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Your Majesty looked, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. 32The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, 33its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. 34While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. 35Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.
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Head of Gold = Babylon

Chest and Arms of Silver = Medo/Persia

Belly and Thighs of Bronze = Greece

Legs of Iron = Rome

Feet Mixed with Iron and baked clay = Revived Rome but not having the same strength as it did when it was pure iron.

Basically, the statue as a whole is representing the major kingdoms of the world, with the feet of iron and baked clay representing that revived Rome with the ten toes representing those ten kings. That said, notices that scripture says that the Rock that is cut out of the mountain will fall on the feet of the statue and will smash it to pieces like chaff on a threshing floor with a wind sweeping it all away without leaving a trace, i.e. the end of all human government.

As I said, this world will be no place for believers within the church to live. First of all, Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer and therefore God's wrath does not rest upon those in Christ. And second, God has put clues in His word, which many reject or don't agree with. One of those clues is that throughout Revelation chapters 1 thru 3, the word 'ekklesia' translated as 'church' is used 19 times, with the last usage being at the very end of chapter 3. Following that in Rev.4:1 you have a voice that sounds like a trumpet, which is the Lord's voice saying to John, "come up here and I will show you what takes place after this." This is a prophetic allusion to where the church is gathered, which is why the word ekklesia/church is never used again until Revelation 22:16 in the epilog. This is no coincidence, but is revealing something to the reader. The church is not mentioned anywhere during the narrative of God's wrath. The word changes to 'hagios' translated as 'saints,' which is referring to the saints mentioned in Rev.7:9-17 who will be those who will have become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath.

The above is a reassurance for those who are faithful. As I said, the tribulation that is coming will be unprecedented. For regarding this time of God's wrath Jesus said "For then there will be great tribulation, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again." This includes the flood. Except unlike Lot who fled to a small city and Noah and his family on the ark, there will be no place on this earth for the church to run to escape the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which are appointed to suffer. Since this will be God pouring out His wrath upon a Christ rejecting world, the church cannot be here to experience it because Jesus already did.

Those who interpret the gathering of the church as taking place after God's wrath when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, are not looking for the imminent return of Christ, because according to their belief God's wrath must take place first. If I was on the earth during the time of God's wrath, I could follow the seals, trumpets and bowls like a road map, knowing that the Lord could not return until after the 7th bowl is poured out. But for those who know that the Lord's appearing to gather His church is imminent, then there is nothing that needs to take place in order for Him to gather us. It is like Jesus said, if the owner of the house had known at what hour of the night that the thief was going to come, he would have watched so that the thief could not take him by surprise. That is how it should be with believers. Since the Lord's return has always been imminent, then we must always be watching and ready.

I did not say that God's wrath was 3 1/2 years. It is seven years in length starting with the seals, then the trumpets and followed by the bowls. The last 3 1/2 years are known as 'The Great Tribulation.'

That entire seven years is the long prophesied "Day of the Lord." Everything that takes place during that time period is God's wrath, including all that the beast and the false prophet will perform. God will be using the entire time period to test those upon the face of the earth. Even the mark of the beast will test the inhabitants of the earth. Those who receive it will be those who will not fear God and will love their live more than God. And those who reject the mark, will keep their testimony of Jesus, the word of God and will not worship the beast, his image nor receive his mark. That time period is all God's wrath, regardless of whether Satan gets angry during that time or not. This will be God's time of wrath!

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The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. He was given power to wage war against the Saints and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
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The 42 months is referring to that last 3 1/2 years in 30 days increments, which is the same as 1260 days or a time, times and half a time. Therefore just as the scripture says, the beast will be given power to wage war against the saints and to conquer them during that 42 months. The saints referred to in the scripture is referring to those introduced in Rev.7:9-17 who will have become believers after the church has been removed from the earth and during the time of God's wrath.

The Day of the Lord is a time period and it is not 1003 and 1/2 years in length. The earth being burned up is also apart of 'the Day of the Lord which doesn't take place until after the millennial kingdom. It begins when that ruler, the antichrist establishes his seven year covenant with Israel, which is the opening of the 1st seal. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place throughout the entire seven years, where after the 7th bowl has been poured out Jesus will return to the earth to end the age.

And just fyi, just because Satan gets angry because he is cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth, this does not mean that it is Satan's time of wrath. He just gets angry during God's wrath.

The gathering of the church is nowhere mentioned in Matthew 24.

Understanding whose wrath this is, is very simple everyone, as revealed by the following:

"Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place." - Daniel 9:24

As you can see above, it is God who decreed the seventy seven year periods upon His people Israel and Jerusalem to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place. That last seven years will fulfill that decree when that antichrist establishes his seven year covenant with Israel, as revealed below:

"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ h In the middle of the ‘seven’ i he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. ”

Therefore, since this seven years is God's decree upon Israel and Jerusalem, why do some of you keep calling it Satan's wrath, when it is God's decree? During that time, God is even going use the beast to destroy the woman who rides the beast. Or do you, like the Pharisees, think that Satan will be fighting against himself?

That entire seven years will be God's time of wrath, The Day of the Lord!

Understanding whose wrath this is, is very simple everyone, as revealed by the following:

"Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place." - Daniel 9:24

As you can see above, it is God who decreed the seventy seven year periods upon His people Israel and Jerusalem to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place. That last seven years will fulfill that decree when that antichrist establishes his seven year covenant with Israel, as revealed below:

"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ h In the middle of the ‘seven’ i he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. ”

Therefore, since this seven years is God's decree upon Israel and Jerusalem, why do some of you keep calling it Satan's wrath, when it is God's decree? During that time, God is even going use the beast to destroy the woman who rides the beast. Or do you, like the Pharisees, think that Satan will be fighting against himself?

That entire seven years will be God's time of wrath, The Day of the Lord!

It doesn't say only the saint that accept the Lord during great tribulation wage war with the beast.

The second coming is and the second coming and rapture happen sametouesly

2 Tes 2
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Verse 1 the second coming and our gathering/ rapture

read to here signed pan tribist

Hello Jackson123,

As I continue to point out, if you claim that the gathering of the church (rapture) takes place when Christ returns to the earth to end the age (second coming), then you would be putting the living church through the entire wrath of God, which we are not appointed to suffer.

The day of the Lord (time of God's wrath) is that day that will not come until the apostasy and the man of lawlessness is revealed.

Once the church is gathered to meet the Lord in the air, it ushers in 'The Day of the Lord' which is the time of God's wrath and which will be completed once the 7th bowl judgment has been poured out.

If you want to remain here to be exposed to God's wrath, that is your business. But as for me and others, according to the Lord's promise, we are looking for the imminent return of the Lord to gather His church before He pours out His wrath on a Christ rejecting world. As for us, when we believed, we were credited with righteousness and reconciled to God and therefore God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe in Christ. God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. And since the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and the plagues of the two witnesses will be God's wrath upon the entire world, then the church cannot be here.

Below are the groups who will be on the earth during the time of God's wrath:

* Israel

* 144,000 who come out of Israel

* The Tribulation Saints (Gentiles)

* The wicked (any one who does not believe)

The church will not be on the earth with those above during that time of wrath.

Big problem with that. You don't have a verse that says the rapture of the church happens pre-tribulation. You'll find you keep running into this problem again, and again, and again for as long as you keep insisting of preaching non-Biblical narratives.

It can be proved, however, the church is present for the tribulation. That makes the rapture post-tribulation.

What you interprate this verse



2 Tes 2
1 Now we beseech you brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Don't you think Paul talking about both second coming and rapture?

What verse say that?

faith is trusting God.
Not trusting him to do something we formulate in our minds.

To just arbitrarily dismiss all the pretrib rapture verses for a notion God never delivers prejudgement is reckless rebellion.

https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/western-drought-brings-another-woe-voracious-grasshoppers1

What do you guys think about the famine, beginning of the birth pains.

Isaiah 27
Easy-to-Read Version
27 At that time the Lord will judge Leviathan,[a]
the crooked snake.
He will use his great sword, his hard and powerful sword,
to punish Leviathan, that twisting, turning snake.
He will kill the monster of the sea.

2 At that time people will sing
about the pleasant vineyard.
3 “I, the Lord, will care for the vineyard.
I will water it at the right time.
I will guard it day and night.
No one will hurt it.
4 I am not angry.
But if there is war and someone builds a wall of thornbushes,[c]
then I will march to it and burn it.
5 But if anyone comes to me for safety
and wants to make peace with me,
then let them come and make peace.
6 In the future, Jacob will take root firmly on his soil.
Then Israel will sprout and bloom,
and the world will be filled with his fruit.”

God Will Send Israel Away
7 Israel was not hurt as badly as the enemy who tried to hurt it. Not as many of its people were killed as those who tried to kill them.

8 The Lord will settle his argument with Israel by sending the people far away. He will speak harshly to Israel. His words will burn like the hot desert wind.

9 How will Jacob’s guilt be forgiven? What will happen so his sins can be taken away? The rocks of the altar will be crushed to dust; the statues[d] and altars for worshiping false gods will all be destroyed.

10 The great city will be empty; it will be like a desert. All the people will be gone—they will run away. The city will be like an open pasture. Young cattle will eat grass there. The cattle will eat leaves from the branches of the vines. 11 The vines will become dry, and the branches will break off. Women will use them for firewood.

The people refuse to understand. So God, their Maker, will not comfort them or be kind to them.

12 At that time the Lord will begin separating his people from others. He will begin at the Euphrates River and will gather his people from there[e] to the River of Egypt.[f]

You people of Israel will be gathered together one by one. 13 Many of my people are now lost in Assyria. Some of my people have run away to Egypt. But at that time a great trumpet will be blown, and all those people will come back to Jerusalem. They will bow down before the Lord on that holy mountain.