Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

I'll just re-affirm that the seal on the 144k protects them from being deceived and taking the mark. By the time the wrath of God arrives, these will be with Christ so aren't in any fear or danger of the wrath of God.

The bride of Christ is the church as well as NJ.

Christians are the bride:

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Here we are told plainly that the example of a man and his wife being of one flesh is about Christ and the church.


Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God


Here again it is Christians that will marry Christ who was raised from the dead.


2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.


Spoken to Christians, the church, being presented as Virgins in a spiritual sense.


Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev_17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.


If a woman "Babylon" also called a city can represent a group of unsaved people then certainly the bride of Christ, a group of saved people, can be represented as a city "New Jerusalem" as well.

Revelation 20:4-6 says that the First Resurrection contains martyred saints from the great tribulation. 1 Thess. 4:13-18 says the first resurrection occurs at the return of Christ. That would place the marriage/supper after the great tribulation, just before the millennial kingdom.

Great white throne judgment doesn't even come after 1,000 years later. Revelation 20:11-15

But the JSOC and GWTJ occur in proximity to each other:

Matthew 25:32-33
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

What I am getting at is I think the order you produced is a little bit off. This is what i think:

1. The Lord descends in the clouds and raises those who have died in Christ.
2. Those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them who have been risen.
3. Both groups make up all that are in Christ. They receive their glorified bodies. This is the adoption.
4. The marriage ceremony occurs.
5. Christ returns to earth with His bride for millennial kingdom.
6. The body of Christ will stand and give an account for labor at the JSOC.
7. New Heaven, New Earth. The rest of eternity begins where only righteousness dwells.

Oh? Are these Israelites saved as well?

Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

the train of thought to the clarification of my conclusion continues in post #80

So the idea of "all" Israel being saved is not including faithless Israel? Only the newer concept of a Christian Israel? If so, then I agree with that.

The last week was actually half or fully fulfilled at the point of Jesus Crucifixion, it seems. (Donkey arrival-crucifixion = 3.5 years = the midst of the week.)
What Paul says about the vengeance of God: (2 Thess 1:5-8)

• "All this is clear evidence of God’s righteous judgment. And so you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 After all, it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant relief to you who are oppressed and to us as well. This will take place when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels 8 in blazing fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. "

Why go through tribulation? Because of the name of Jesus. And Paul calls to mind God's vengeance is to those who disobey the gospel.
On the contrary, Revelation 14:12 calls for the perseverance of obedient saints, effectively proving that tribulation is not God's wrath.

• 3:10 also says, "Because you have kept My command to persevere, ... ".
• 3:12 He says, "The one who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of My God"

The one who overcomes what?

• 2:10 He says, "Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Look, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison to test you, and you will suffer tribulation for ten days."

Do you realize that the very 7 churches that you brought up are already undergoing a form of tribulation?
This claim itself, I find faulty for just one passage of Revelation 14

• 14:7 says after the 144k redemption, " Fear God and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come. "
• 14:9 says "If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath."

It seems, according to Revelation, the judgement of God is to those who worship the beast, and not Christians who suffer for Christ's sake.

I can list 2 more in which I find faulty the idea "wrath = 7 yrs".

Maybe it's just me but I have seen more fear of a post tribulation rapture than a pre one or secret one. personally it doesn't matter to me whether it's a pre mid or post one because doctrines can be interpreted they can be misquoted they can be twisted or taken out of context but the heart that chases after him with all their mind body and soul can have none of these in their hearts.

I believe in a pre trib rapture but my heart is also prepared for whatever comes I think that is more important than what type of rapture you believe in and this topic is beaten past blue in all of the world and I have yet to see anyone change their minds from it so honestly if it doesn't bring fruit it doesn't need proving or disproving God is going to act how he sees fit regardless what we call truth or not.
It's more important to have our hearts set deeply in him than it is to have the right rapture after all there is no fear in Christ if people are in fear it's not the doctrine of the rapture they need to have right it's their relationship with God

Yes, I mean no, not including those that continue in unbelief. I agree. Although, you may not agree with my idea of the Christian Gentile being included in this particular reference to "all Israel," not that I would call myself Jewish though. *well,... unless you count the .1% Ashkenazi in my lineage.

I agree the Gentiles grafted to Israel become members of Israel just as they become members of the body of Christ and the bride of Christ.

So many people have made the same claim as you have above, not realizing that Israel is already the WIFE of God, not the bride. Big difference! Israel is already married to God and the church is the bride and will be made the wife at the wedding of the Lamb, which will take place in heaven after the dead and living of the church is caught up to meet the Lord in the air and is taken back to the Father's house.

My prayer is that God would open up your understanding to these truths so that you would stop offering up these false apologetics and stope rejecting the truth.

Not sure if they will have glorified bodies. The Bible seems to imply that children may be born during the Millennium.

That is false! The prophecy says, that there will be seven 'seven year' periods (49 years) for the restoring and rebuilding Jerusalem. Then after sixty two seven year periods (434 years) the Messiah would be cut off, which is Christ Crucified. The Lord was cut off at the end of the sixty nineth seven and there remains one seven year period left which God will fulfill leading up to to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. The prophecy puts Christ as being crucified prior to the onset of that last seven year period, which yet future.

First, stop pigeonholing the word "vengeance" because the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are also God's vengeance and not just when He returns to the earth. And second, all you are doing is repeating something you have heard or read, because I've seen this same claim many times. The problem with it is that in their haste to try and offer this false apologetic up, is that they overlook that Paul includes himself and those with him when he says, "and to us as well." You know very well that Paul is not alive today to experience Christ coming from heaven with His angels in blazing fire.

Please stop looking for false apologetics and be open to the truth.

Those great tribulation saints who die during that time, will be resurrected in their immortal and glorified bodies when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, as revealed in Rev.20:4-6. Those saints who make it alive through the entire period of wrath, will enter into the millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies, along with the remnant of Israel and will repopulate the earth during the millennial kingdom.

Those who have been born again.
Those who have not been born again.

"HatedForNoReason" eh? Sounds more like "Hatedforagoodreason".

You're kind of losing me with this whole repopulate part.

And as for the tribulation period, I think it's been ongoing for centuries. So there are no saints that suffer through it and make it out alive at the end. I think the tribulation is the slow decay and apostacy of the churches and world religions. There are passages and scriptures that give me this impression. But, I really don't think these end times and millennialism stuff is in my head. I don't get it. I don't understand it.

That's kind of going back to basics, "be fruitful and multiply."

Or ...

The husbandmen scenario, the tillers of the ground, the laborers of the harvest. It is perhaps in that spiritual activity that more "children are born."

I'll just leave this here...

Matthew 22:30
30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.