Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

[ewq1938]

Anyone who's studied this knows (or should know) that when John Nelson Darby was inventing his dispensationalism he face a dilemma. He believed the church age would end and a new age—or dispensation—would begin in which God would once again turn His attention to the Jews. But what would bring about the end of the church age? The pre-tribulation rapture of course. He didn't get this idea by studying the scripture and having a revelation from the Lord. He was actively looking for something to fit his preconceived notions of dispensationalism.

The pre-trib rapture isn't taught in scripture. It's a pure fabrication. And the fact that so many people have bought into it proves people don't understand God's word.

True.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

This passage literally tells us the gathering of us to Christ will not happen until the Apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin happens and those things are related to events of the Great Tribulation which means the rapture in no way can happen before thousand years Great Tribulation does.

That people believe the opposite of this passage means the strong delusion God sends is the pre-trib rapture doctrine.

 

[Runningman]

According to your theory, we are caught up in the clouds in the air, jump on white horses and turn around and follow the Lord back down to earth.

When does the JSOC occur? The marriage between of the Lamb and His bride?

The church is betrothed to Christ. He will take His bride (the church) when He returns and takes the church in a rapture. The marriage supper will follow the rapture. You can read about it in Matthew 25 and Revelation 19.

 

[ResidentAlien]

True.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

This passage literally tells us the gathering of us to Christ will not happen until the Apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin happens and those things are related to events of the Great Tribulation which means the rapture in no way can happen before thousand years Great Tribulation does.

That people believe the opposite of this passage means the strong delusion God sends is the pre-trib rapture doctrine.

"Thousand year Great Tribulation?" Huh?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

TheDivineWatermark said:
Matthew 24:29-31 (at the "GREAT trumpet") corresponds with same in Isaiah 27:12-13, and no one in that passage is experiencing the "SNATCH [G726 - harpazo / rapture / caught UP]" thing... rather, those folks (spoken of in the Isa27:12-13 context, parallel to Matt24:29-31) will be "gathered" by ANGELS "He shall SEND" to do so, and they will be gathered "ONE by ONE" (not "AS ONE," as *we* will be) to worship the Lord in the holy mount, AT JERUSALEM (that is, to an EARTHLY location, not "TO the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR"). In every way distinct to that of the event spoken of in 1Th4:17 regarding "the Church which is His body" ("us"), see.

G726 from the context is a military term those days for a Roman Soldier making you carry their stuff a mile. Also, is used in literature outside the Bible for someone being forced into military service. One taken away while others are left behind. In Matthew 24 two questions were asked and answered. One relates to the Abomination of Desolations.

In the "one taken, the other left" passages (Matt24 among them), the "one taken" is "taken away in judgment" (just as in Noah's day), and the one "left" is "left to enter the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial kingdom age in their mortal bodies 'capable of reproducing / bearing children'" (just as in Noah's day).

Here's a post I made on that, some time back:

[quoting from old post]

"as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be"... [...]:

--ALL "Son of man cometh / coming / shall come / coming of / etc" passages refer to His Second Coming to the earth (NOT "our Rapture"), to judge / govern / reign (i.e. the earthly MK age commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth);

--the "one taken" is taken away in judgment (just as in Noah's day);

--the one "left" is left on the earth, to ENTER the earthly MK age in their mortal bodies, capable of reproducing/bearing children (just as in Noah's day; Only the "saints / righteous / BLESSED" [i.e. "saved" persons] will ENTER the MK age, upon His "RETURN" there--these are folks who will have come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" and who will have survived [alive] throughout the entire trib years, as in Dan12:12 and about 7-8 other "BLESSED" passages speaking of the same time-slot/circumstances, including in this Matt24 context "BLESSED" and in ITS parallel passage Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "BLESSED"... "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347])

--thus, Matt24 / Lk17, where these phrases are found (re: His Second Coming to the earth time-slot), parallel both Gen9:1 and Dan2:35c "and FILL [/FILLED] the [whole] earth" (i.e. the "taken / left" passages are NOT "Rapture" contexts)


[end quoting old post]

____________


In the Matt24:3 passage (and context: Jesus' response throughout 2 chpts) their Q of Him was BASED ON what He had ALREADY spoken to them about in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 (when the ANGELS will "REAP")... so this "taken" is done by "angels" (and not to "favorable" ends, when it comes to the unsaved/unbelievers).

In the context of the "as the days of Noah were, [so shall also...]," the part where it says, "and they knew not until," this refers NOT to NOAH (who did know beforehand, having believed God and thus having "prepared the ark"), but rather the "they knew not until" refers to those who were "taken away in [the flood] judgment"... It is not saying they'd never "heard" about it upcoming, but that they disregarded the Word of God via Noah (who was "a preacher of righteousness" 2Pet2:5)... thus shall it also be in that future period (in the years preceding and leading up to His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19 [FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age], i.e. the CONTEXT of Matt24 [ALL of which chpt is telling of things FOLLOWING "our Rapture" event])

 

[Mem]

The seal of God protects them from being deceived. It is unrelated to the wrath of God because they wouldn't be targets of that and therefore need no protection from it.

I supposed it did have to do with the wrath of God considering the four angels who are said to have been 'preserved for this very hour' (to kill a third of mankind , Rev 9:15) were told to stand down until these were sealed.

 

[TheLearner]

That is only half the process. Those who die will be resurrected in glorious immortal bodies AT THE SAME TIME that those who are alive will be transformed and raptured. But all this must happen BEFORE the Second Coming of Christ (when He comes with His saints).

Jude 1:14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

I was thinking of jude 1:14 to explain where the saints in heaven came from.

 

[TheLearner]

You are simply conflating two *distinct* harvests...


[quoting from old post... bottom of a Post #607 back on Jan2]

"[...] recall my study on how I believe "the 144,000" are "FIRSTFRUIT" of the "WHEAT" harvest, per the SECOND mention of "firstfruit" in Lev23, that is, in v.17, parallel Rev14:4 language... and where Lev23:17 says, "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" [There are distinct "harvests"--That is, there are more than one "harvest" in Scripture and in nature--the WHEAT harvest is threshed by means of a "tribulum" (harvesting implement), whereas the earlier harvest by means of "tossing up into the AIR [and 'blowing' away the chaff]" "


[end quoting from old post]

____________

The word for "gather" in Matthew 13:30 (where the ANGELS are told to "GATHER/COLLECT ye FIRST the TARES" [versus the "GATHER [G4863 - sunago] WHEAT into My barn"]) is in the CONTEXT of events surrounding His Second Coming to the earth Rev19 FOR the earthly MK age (not "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]")... that word "gather [G4863]" (re: the WHEAT harvest--not US/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY) is a PART OF the word *you* are presenting here, "epi - sunago [G1996]"... so then the question becomes "CONTEXT" (which "harvest" is being gathered, and "when" and "in what manner"?... which I've explained further in other old posts)

No, I am not.

24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

when shall these things be?

what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

those are the two questions...

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Break point between the two questions.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochus_IV_Epiphanes#Books_of_Maccabees
https://hermeneutics.stackexchange....nderstanding-of-the-abomination-of-desolation
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/apocalypse/primary/mark13.html
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/what-is-the-abomination-of-desolation/
https://www.gotquestions.org/abomination-desolation.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abomi...solation" is a,which such offerings were made.

 

[John146]

The church is betrothed to Christ. He will take His bride (the church) when He returns and takes the church in a rapture. The marriage supper will follow the rapture. You can read about it in Matthew 25 and Revelation 19.

Revelation 19 is the marriage of the Lamb and takes place in heaven before His return as King of Kings. His bride has been caught up to be with Him.

 

[ewq1938]

"Thousand year Great Tribulation?" Huh?

The Great Tribulation is 42 months long not a thousand years.

 

[ewq1938]

I supposed it did have to do with the wrath of God considering the four angels who are said to have been 'preserved for this very hour' (to kill a third of mankind , Rev 9:15) were told to stand down until these were sealed.

A seal was placed on rolled up paper to protect the contents from being read and/or altered by the wrong people. So, a spiritual seal protects the persons soul from being altered. While most people on the Earth will be deceived and receive the mark of the beast, the seal on the 144k protects them from going that route. Unrelated to God's wrath which is only directed at those who took the mark.

 

[HatedForNoReason]

The Great Tribulation is 42 months long not a thousand years.

https://testallthings.com/2009/06/05/a-study-of-revelation-13/amp/

Only nonelect receive mark of the beast 666.

It is impossible for God’s elects to “worship the beast and his image and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand”.

• Only God's elects will get to Heaven for sure 100% because God will give them the Holy Spirit. (Psalm 37:28, John 6:37, John 10:27-29, Romans 8:35-39, Ephesians 1:11-14, 1 Peter 1:5)

Ephesians 1:13-14 King James Version (KJV)
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Revelation 7:3
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

https://testallthings.com/2010/05/31/when-is-the-rapture/

If you are interested in freedom from sin and how do we receive the Holy Spirit? read below.
After God gave me the Holy Spirit, I found proof that TV, movies, novels, music, video games and computer games are all sins, except Christian stuff that don’t have sins like sermons and Christian music words that gives messages. I found out that in them there is lying, stealing, adultery (Matthew 5:28 looking at someone with lust is adultery), fornication which is sex before marriage, revenge, murder, jealousy, pride=self-pity, hypocrisy, using God’s name in vain as a curse word, they are all idols (breaks 2nd Commandment) because most people can’t live without them and they love them more than God and more. Just read the 10 commandments for a list.

1 John 2:15 King James Version (KJV)


15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 New King James Version

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.


Now I will be preaching about how to receive the Holy Spirit and be 100% going to Heaven.

First, it’s only by the grace of God that he gives you faith in Jesus Christ in order to give up your sins. It’s only by the grace of God that he leads you to pray to him to destroy all your evil desires of watching TV or any sinful desires. When you pray to God to destroy all your evil desires of watching TV or sinful desires (Romans 6:6-7 and Galatians 5:24), Satan will intervene and extremely tempt you in watching the TV. But if it’s God’s will and if you are one of God’s elects, you will overcome it and God will destroy all your evil desires of watching TV. After God has destroyed all your evil desires of watching TV and if you are one of God’s elects, you receive the joy of the Holy Spirit for about 40 minutes. After the joy wears off, all existence of boredom no longer exists and you no longer burn out (psychology) anymore. That is when you have received the Holy Spirit.

Then it’s by the grace of God that he forgives you of your sins, as you confess and repent of your sins throughout your life which is called sanctification. But you can watch Christian stuff that don’t have sins (Like sermons) because that helps you grow more mature as a Christian spiritually and for more information about this sermon, go to spreadthegospel59.wordpress.com then go to
The short version of “To be free from sin (sin deceives and hurts everyone) and how do we receive the Holy Spirit?”

Why does God hate sin? | GotQuestions.org
What does it mean that “you were bought with a price” (1 Corinthians 6:20; 7:23)? | GotQuestions.org
Sin Will Never Make You Happy
(What does the Bible say about hypocrisy? | GotQuestions.org)
Gives thanks to God, that you are free from sin (sin deceives=never satisfied no matter how many times you do it,
gives pain, makes you guilty, go from bad to worse)
if you are one of God’s elect, to fight off self-pity is to give thanks to God for everything. What does the Bible say about self-pity? | GotQuestions.org
Is eternal security a “license” to sin? | GotQuestions.org

The reason why am hated for no reason since I were physically born and never fit in is because am one of God’s elects. (John 15:18-19)


Just so you know Jesus had to carry all of God’s elects sins and endure the punishment for God’s elects sins which is Hellfire spiritually, which is extreme love and mercy.
Go to the bottom website, for better explanation.
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/jesus-eternal-punishment-hours/

 

[TheLearner]

A seal was placed on rolled up paper to protect the contents from being read and/or altered by the wrong people. So, a spiritual seal protects the persons soul from being altered. While most people on the Earth will be deceived and receive the mark of the beast, the seal on the 144k protects them from going that route. Unrelated to God's wrath which is only directed at those who took the mark.

Revelation 7:4-10

Easy-to-Read Version



4 Then I heard how many people had God’s mark on their foreheads. There were 144,000. They were from every tribe of the people of Israel:
5 from the tribe of Judah 12,000
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000
from the tribe of Gad 12,000
6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000
7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000
from the tribe of Levi 12,000
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000
8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000
The Great Crowd
9 Then I looked, and there was a large crowd of people. There were so many people that no one could count them all. They were from every nation, tribe, race of people, and language of the earth. They were standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They all wore white robes and had palm branches in their hands. 10 They shouted loudly, “Victory belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

 

[TheLearner]

trsf yp jrtr

 

[Mem]

Saved for Gods wrath

A seal was placed on rolled up paper to protect the contents from being read and/or altered by the wrong people. So, a spiritual seal protects the persons soul from being altered. While most people on the Earth will be deceived and receive the mark of the beast, the seal on the 144k protects them from going that route. Unrelated to God's wrath which is only directed at those who took the mark.

Rev 9:4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

We're just looking at the same thing from different perspectives. You are looking at wrath with relevance to the absence of the mark of the beast while I am looking at its relevance to the presence of God's mark that is effective in similarity to the Passover.

 

[Runningman]

Revelation 19 is the marriage of the Lamb and takes place in heaven before His return as King of Kings. His bride has been caught up to be with Him.

Hard to have a marriage supper without all of the wedding guests present. That would exclude "those who are alive and remain" on Earth at the time of Christ's return if it occured before Jesus returns.

Are living and breathing saints invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb or not? Because if it occurs before He returns He just left out everyone who hasn't been raptured. Seems highly unlikely.

See how that measures up against 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

 

[pumpkinbread1567]

. https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/encyclopedia-of-the-bible/Barley-Harvest

yes. The Law doesn't say "bring barley", but by the "firstfruits," I believe it refers to barley.

 

[pumpkinbread1567]

It just escapes me as to the reason God must take the church "out of the way"

the gathering of the church

the Church. The true bride of Christ.

So, I ask this question to all:

There seems to be this common belief that the bride of Christ is "the church", but while it is theologically, she's technically Jerusalem according to John's Revelations.

• So what do you guys mean by "the church"?
• As some people claim that some believers will be taken up for marriage, and the rest will go through tribulation and won't be eligible for marriage, do you exclude a certain group of people from "the church"?

 

[Mem]

So, I ask this question to all:

There seems to be this common belief that the bride of Christ is "the church", but while it is theologically, she's technically Jerusalem according to John's Revelations.

• So what do you guys mean by "the church"?
• As some people claim that some believers will be taken up for marriage, and the rest will go through tribulation and won't be eligible for marriage, do you exclude a certain group of people from "the church"?

I hold to remnant theology, wherein scripture says in Romans 11:26, "And in this manner all Israel will be saved...' is preceded by the components (which we are not to be ignorant of) that make up "all" Israel [the wild and natural olive branches (re) grafted into the Root). If it is otherwise, then the use of the term "all" would imply every single natural branch is saved.

 

[John146]

Hard to have a marriage supper without all of the wedding guests present. That would exclude "those who are alive and remain" on Earth at the time of Christ's return if it occured before Jesus returns.

Are living and breathing saints invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb or not? Because if it occurs before He returns He just left out everyone who hasn't been raptured. Seems highly unlikely.

See how that measures up against 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

Those who are alive and remain are caught up to be with the Lord. They are part of the bride of Christ.

1. The Lord descends in the clouds and raises those who have died in Christ.
2. Those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them who have been risen.
3. Both groups make up all that are in Christ. They receive their glorified bodies. This is the adoption.
4. The body of Christ will stand and give an account for labor at the JSOC.
5. The marriage ceremony occurs.
6. Christ returns to earth with His bride.

 

[Mem]

I hold to remnant theology, wherein scripture says in Romans 11:26, "And in this manner all Israel will be saved...' is preceded by the components (which we are not to be ignorant of) that make up "all" Israel [the wild and natural olive branches (re) grafted into the Root). If it is otherwise, then the use of the term "all" would imply every single natural branch is saved.

...but the condition given in order that God is able to graft the natural branches back in is "if they do not continue in unbelief," I'm more confident to conclude the "all" used in the phrase "all of Israel will we saved" does include "all" the actually saved, which includes grafted in gentiles.