Pentecostalism's sketchy origins

Of course you have a good Scriptural foundation for proving your assertion that the millions of Pentecostals who are speaking in tongues are speaking mere gibberish. Ensure that the verses you quote are in context. Don't use 1 Corinthians 13:8-10, because every intelligent person knows that these verses are not about the canon of Scripture.

Quoting a good Scriptural foundation ensures that you are not giving us a load of codswallop.

Actually, you and I are the only ones on this thread who have a good appreciation of sound doctrine...however, I'm not so sure about you!

Funny...I have either been a member of a Pentecostal church or associated with Pentecostals as friends, and I have never witnessed any of these behaviours in Pentecostal churches. Making horse noises? Maybe some have had colds and were just a little hoarse!

By the way, I read Michael L Brown's book "Authentic Fire". He says that in all the years he was a leader in the Brownsville church during the revival there, he never saw anyone making animal noises in the services, and says quite definitely this type of behaviour never happened, and the accusation was fake news, slander by ignorant people who were opposing the revival, who probably had never attended any of the meetings.

Thats right our father in heaven is the ultimativ authority, not our understanding ore our teaching.
You miss to proof that your teaching was taught to the Christians during the apostles time.

When you read my post, you must have read that I am was not talking from today, but from the beginning of the pentecostal movement. Today you can find kind of this behaviours in charismatic movements. They call it a little smoothier. Holy laughing, holy Rolling, holy rest in the spirit.

Derek Prince said if rolling makes us holy, then let's roll! And, of course, there is nothing wrong with expressing joy with laughter.

Of course, in every revival there are unusual manifestations, especially among the unconverted who come under intense conviction of sin. The best study of unusual manifestations was written by Jonathan Edwards from his observation of the things that went on during the Great Awakening in America during his time. Jesse Penn-Lewis wrote a very insightful book called "War on the Saints" based on her observation of what went on during the Welsh Revival.

Of course, when the revivals wound down, there were always the zealot fanatics who tried to keep the manifestations going long after the Holy Spirit had finished with them.

actually the Bible show that very clearly as I provided the text examples for in Judges and 1 Samuel and Jesus in John chapter 20:22

Jesus after he rose from the Dead came to the disciples in John 20:22 and said Peace be unto you Breathed on them and said receive the Holy Spirit. Then He said go and wait until you receive Power from on High the Holy Spirit will come upon you and empower you to be a witness. Acts 1:8

Well, thats your understanding. I cant find this description in Acts 2 at pentecost.

But in Spiritism.

Paul bragged about Speaking in Tongues more than anyone else. This means Paul spoke in Tongues at Church gatherings, his private prayer, praying in your mind. Do you think every time Paul prayed in private he was in the Spirit, when you pray in private are you in the Spirit?

Paul also claimed he wished everyone Spoke in Tongues. That means Paul believes everyone single person Saved and filled with the Holy Spirit has the ability to Speak in Tongues. Since these 2 mini Paragraphs can be proven in Scripture, how come you haven't reached the point of Speaking in Tongues? Is it that you have little Faith? Is it you don't believe what the Bible claims?

I dont speak about tongues, maby you should read on what i have anwered.

There are many of great faith, who don't speak in tongues, or did speak in tongues, and then were rebuked by the Holy Spirit to stop and come out of this false modern mov't.

To say manifesting signs and wonders, speaking in tongues and healing people is a sign of great faith, is exactly what is wrong with the whole charismatic/Pentecostal mov't of modern days.

Faith is so much deeper and vital than these superficial signs and wonders.

1. Faith is a gift of God! It is not something we muster up, or psych ourselves up to get more faith. That is unbiblical!

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Eph 2:8-10

2. God gives us the exact amount of faith we need.

"For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned." Romans 12:3

God has given, or assigned us the measure of faith we need.

Faith is a gift of God. False Word Faith teachers teach you need to dig up more faith. But Faith the size of a mustard seed is all you need!

"And he said, “With what can we compare the kingdom of God, or what parable shall we use for it? 31 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when sown on the ground, is the smallest of all the seeds on earth, 32 yet when it is sown it grows up and becomes larger than all the garden plants and puts out large branches, so that the birds of the air can make nests in its shade.” Mark 4:30-32

God gives us that tiny mustard seed of faith, the sower plants it, and the natural elements cause it to grow!

"Righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne; steadfast love and faithfulness go before you." Psalm 89:14

When you speak of faith, it goes hand in hand with righteousness, Justice and love. And that comes from God! Not some trite earthly signs. Signs and wonders in the NT are not to prove anyone's personal faith, but rather to confirm Jesus was who he said he was -the Messiah, the Son of Man! To show how he fulfilled all the Old Testament promises and prophecies.

Instead, the charismatic mov't makes it "all about me!" "All about the 21st century" and NOT to the people in the first century AD. And not about the correct way to grow mature in Christ and in your faith. ("All about me" is the best way to describe a personality disorder!)

Take the focus off your faith and your gifts, and you will find a deeper relationship with God. Babbling in tongues, regardless of the interpretation, does not compare to walking quietly with the Holy Spirit leading and transforming you. And that is done by renewing your mind, through prayer and meditation, feeding on the Word of God, acts of service and like Romans 12:4-10:

"For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, 5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; 8 the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness." Romans 12:4-10

Further, let us look at the verse just before, which really establishes how we are to walk with God! Romans 12:2 says:

"Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." Romans 12:2 ESV

The word transform in Koine Greek is μεταμορφοῦσθε or transliterated, it is metamorphousthe. It means transform, but the tense is very important! It is in the passive imperative.

Passive means it is done to you. So the Holy Spirit does this too you. It is also imperative, which is a command. So we are commanded to let God change us. It is also known as the Divine passive. That means God is the one changing us, while we are renewing our mind on the Word of God!

Not dancing around, shouting and being emotional. A real filling of the Holy Spirit means, we are passive, while the Holy Spirit brings us closer and closer, while continuing to transform us into the imago dei - the image of God.

Instead, these revelries are Dionysus/Bacchus parties of excess! (Dionysus, also spelled Dionysos, also called Bacchus or (in Rome) Liber Pater, in Greco-Roman religion, a nature god of fruitfulness and vegetation, especially known as a god of wine and ecstasy.)

You have substituted a wild drunken party for the quiet leading of the Holy Spirit. You have lost the renewing of the mind, following Roman sin and idolatry, instead! You have been brainwashed into believing that God is present in the wild, babbling excessive tongues, and lost contact with the fact that God doesn't use revelry to transform us-he uses the renewing of the mind.

PS Don't bother pointing out the "love feasts or fellowshipping wildly" is what Paul had in mind. Paul believed in the assembling of believers. But people do not lose their collective minds, but they could be taught to walk with the Holy Spirit! I hope there are many Pentecostals/charismatics who feel this way. I just never saw it in my 15 years in those type of churches. Excess and emotionalism is not the way to grow into a mature Christian, but that is what erupts frequently in these immature churches!

As for all the examples in Acts of speaking in tongues, it was the birth of the church. 1000s came to the Lord weekly. But 1000s do not come to the Lord in modern day 21st century revelling. I do not think tongues is completely dead, if the unknown tongue is heard by an unbeliever, and the prophecy said "Jesus Christ is Lord!" In their own real language. And that unbeliever gets saved, and 27 members of his family, also.

But then our churches are so involved in shallow, easy believerism, that true conviction of sin is largely absent in both preaching and responses to it. We don't see people getting on their faces crying out to God for mercy, because the preaching is so devoid of conviction that people don't really know what they are being saved from.

It was actually a joke! Some people need to grow a sense of humour.

The member who disagreed with this is merely showing that she can't find any Scriptures that support her position on the gifts of the Spirit. No surprises there!

Someone disagreed with this post. My response is that there are many more church members sleeping and snoring through boring, lifeless and graceless sermons than there are lunatic fringe fanatics in the Pentecostal movement.

This is what I noticed in my church, too. Gospel, without to tell the alternative of beeing saved. That means why someone should become Christian when he dont know that he is lost in eternity without Christ.

This is simply not true. If you look to the corinthian church, you cant claime that their believers Was filled with the Holy Spirit.
Also nor Paul ore any other writer of the NT taught that filling with the Holy Spirit is combined/ ore seen in speaking in tongues. And in 1. COR 12.30 Paul made clear 1. that speaking in tongues is one of much gifts and 2. Not every believer will got this gift.
That means those believers never can be filled with the Holy Spirit, according your theory.

It's the theology that's wrong, there are a few crooks I don't doubt.

How is it their theology that's wrong?

It is the theology that puts faith before grace, the cart before the horse, that insists that we must do something in order to receive God's free grace.

God wants to heal us, God wants us to prosper just like He wants us to be saved ...

We know that we can do nothing to receive salvation only repent and believe, change our mind, change direction, at first we didn't believe now we do.

But the Holy Spirit must work these things into us.

But when it comes to healing and prosperity they start teaching the reverse, we must take the initiative, we must produce the faith and actions that will correspond to God' word. No waiting for God to do the work first.

If a preacher calls 100 sinners to the front and leads them in prayer they will say 100 sinners got saved. Mebbe some did but in reality it may only be a few. I have always been opposed to altar calls. But who knows? they say a hundred got saved, who can look into the heart to say whether the work was done?

But when a preacher asks 100 sick folks to the front you are going to know very quickly whether 100 sick folks got healed.

That's when all the nonsense begins. All the jumping up and down and anointed screamings, drop kicking old ladies to instil faith in them.

But don't doubt God's will to heal and prosper.

What they should have done is gone to their bible to see what is written there. Does it say lay hands on the sick? then we shall lay hands on the sick ... nothing occult there.

Your answer on sin and sickness is inadequate. "in view of eternity" is cop out ... you know that

I may have the same problem that you have in seeing the full manifestation of healing and miracles though I've seen some marvellous stuff. But that does not lead me to say it is somehow God's fault.

Let's put our hands up and say God's word is true but we have not yet attained to it's fulness.