The second coming of Jesus

Why would you use NIV ...for example....when it refers to Gods....plural? That or one of the others. Which all have been written under the guise of...easier to read...ha ha...sine 1960. Does that wring a bell? It should. I will spend no time on the issue...just brought it to your attention.

What is wrong with the 1611 KJV? Have not seen a problem with it yet...with decades of use.
The new age religion movement is slanting interpretations then writing bibles to support their position.
We have a new one coming....writing...Andy Stanley ...son of Charles Stanley....now says we need not be concerned with God's commandments.....Christ justified our transgressions...automatically. When questioned his group in Ohio I was told to read his writings n a few months. LOL

Since Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely, why He send through His wrath those who already have faith in Him, who have been credited with His righteousness and reconciled to God?

Jesus said that believers would suffer trials and persecution, which come at the hands of men and the powers of darkness. The wrath of God however is completely different, because it is the time when God will be pouring out His wrath upon a Christ rejecting world. You would be having the righteous suffering God's wrath right along with the wicked and doesn't do that.

By the way, God's wrath hasn't begun yet. The church first has to be gathered and then God's wrath begins, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

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They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. - 1 Thessalonians 1:10

For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. - 1 Thessalonians 5:9

Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! - Romans 5:9

But he was pierced for our transgressions,

he was crushed for our iniquities;

the punishment that brought us peace was on him,

and by his wounds we are healed.

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We have peace with God, because Jesus took the punishment (wrath) that we deserve on behalf of every believer.

No, the Church (capital c) will not be killed. Only the Tribulation saints are killed (martyred). The Church will be with Christ in Heaven, since God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation.

I started off with the KJV and still refer to it. and I could show you problems in it.

Why should I be concerned about singular and plural when I know who makes up the Godhead?

Are you going to tell me to restrict myself to one translation? No thank you! I prefer the freedom to look at all of the translations.

I'm not a KJV only person. Those who are, are just restricting their study base.

Not everyone is bias in translating the word of God.

Regarding God's commandments, I believe that he is referring to our no longer being under the law, which we are not. I have a document with all of the major scriptures which proclaim that we are saved by grace through faith and not by the works of the law. Does that mean that we have free will to sin? God forbid! However, we are not under the law, but are under a new covenant where we follow Christ and are led by the Spirit. Christ fulfilled the law, satisfying it completely.

For Christ is the end of the law, to bring righteousness to everyone who believes.

In Revelation, John called himself a companion in tribulation. I thought we are all under tribulation at this point, but for sure God's wrath hasn't begun. That whole phase starts with huge earthquakes like none ever experienced on earth. He says he will remove the earth from its foundation by them. Can you imagine what the surface of the planet will be like if it's knocked out of orbit or off its axis? Or maybe I'm just not understanding what God means when he says remove earth from its foundation.

Some think "climate change" is going to destroy life on this planet. They may be right. haha.

umm no, the climate has always been and always will be changing...

Job 28:25-27
“When He imparted weight to the wind
And meted out the waters by measure,
When He set a limit for the rain
And a course for the thunderbolt,
Then He saw it and declared it;
He established it and also searched it out.

Job 26:8-9
“He wraps up the waters in His clouds,
And the cloud does not burst under them.
“He obscures the face of the full moon
And spreads His cloud over it.

Jeremiah 5:24
‘They do not say in their heart,
“Let us now fear the Lord our God,
Who gives rain in its season,
Both the autumn rain and the spring rain,
Who keeps for us
The appointed weeks of the harvest.”
ETC.ETC>

Yes, you are correct. We are all subject to tribulation. However, the demise of the earth given in detail in the book of Revelation, which is why God made it known to us. Right in the very first verse God says:

"The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must take place in quickness.

The "what must take place" are the events of God's wrath of which the majority of the book is dedicated to, chapters 6 thru 18.

Since God cannot lie, then everything will take place just as it is written and in the order that they appear.

That would be like saying the great tribulation, characterized by persecution of saints, the mark of the beast, the anti-Christ, false prophet, etc. are God's wrath which they aren't.

Also, there are numerous examples in the Bible of righteous people told to either flee a geographic location, stay inside, or build an ark to circumvent the wrath of God which they were not appointed to. None of them were swept away to heaven pre-wrath not even once.

It'll be the same way for the church in the great tribulation. The church will undergo mass persecution and apostasy before the return of Christ. When Christ returns He will gather those who are faithful in the rapture then take vengeance on those who did not obey the gospel.

Read 2 Thessalonians 1:8 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3.

Why do you continue to call the great tribulation the wrath of God?
God's wrath is not announced until the seventh trump.
Jesus said great tribulation will come. You deny what Jesus said and say the seals and trumpets are God's wrath.

God does not lie. Absolutely agree 100% there.

The problem is people misunderstand God a lot. It was the same when Jesus came the first time and it's the same now. Make every effort to really understand God's word, not the teachings of men. Being convinced in your own mind of some particular pet doctrine really isn't a reason to stop striving for the truth. The words of God will always be there when you're ready to accept them.

God is not misunderstood by his servants. But those under wrath are under strong delusion. Whether they think they're "ready to accept God's words" is not in their power.

The word "accept" needs to be eliminated. Until people stop believing that "pet doctrine" of acceptance, they're remaining under delusion.

Can one of you pre-tribers explain to me what Paul meant in 1 Corinthians15:52 when he said this great event will take place at the LAST TRUMP?

God's word can be accepted or rejected even by true believers in Christ. So you're advocating that the word of God should not be accepted?

Not a pre-tribber, but the last trump is the return of Christ, resurrection, and rapture. It occurs after the tribulation according to Matthew 24:29-31 and corresponds with the trumpet mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:52 and the trumpet mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. It is also the time of God's wrath according to Revelation 11:15-19.

From The Bible Knowledge Commentary...

The dead in Christ will first be raised, and then the living will be instantaneously transformed. The trumpet, as in the Old Testament, signaled the appearance of God (cf. Ex. 19:16). It is the last blast for the church because this appearance shall never end (cf. 1 Cor. 13:12). (There is no basis for posttribulationists equating this trumpet with the seventh trumpet in Rev. 11:15-19. The trumpets in Rev. pertain to judgments during the Tribulation, whereas the trumpet in 1 Cor. 15:52 is related to the church.)
15:53-54. 1 Corinthians 15:51-53

We need to distinguish between the trials and tribulations of the saints and the Tribulation period for the unbelieving and the ungodly. A lot of people get these mixed up.

No basis?

What about the bit mentioned in the 7th trumpet, Revelation 11:15 in particular:

15Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out in heaven:

“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever.”

So, this is true regarding the return of Christ isn't it? Christ returns at the last trumpet. Not sure how there's a way to separate the 7th trumpet in Revelation from the other trumpet scriptures at the return of Christ.

What do you mean 'no basis?'
You left out the source I had mentioned....
From The Bible Knowledge Commentary...

dragon = draconum = Drakōn
I believe,

In the bible,martyrs have a strong willing to follow Jesus Christ. They realize that needs more as Jesus Christ: "father, they don't know what they are doing, please forgive them."
For example, Peter,

Many Christians are unable to face "persecution". (Including myself)

How can I express my understanding clearly?
For example, some unfair treatment in life, usually angry, angry and anger.
I train myself to face these things with normal mind.When it comes to things that should make me angry, I should be calm.

In fact, we are no longer living for ourselves,but for Jesus Christ.
Live or die as Jesus crucified for us.
All in all, it takes confidence and exercise.

As bible told us that we should perfect as Jesus Christ.

My point is to think of myself as a martyr at any time, What can't be forgiven? Nothing is unforgivable.

You may have doubts about how some things can be forgiven ?
Think about when Jesus on the cross,You will find the answer.

Hello Runningman,

With all of the previous trumpets, each trumpet was sounded and immediately there was a resulting plague of wrath. It is not like that here at the 7th trumpet. After the 7th trumpet is sounded, there is first a pre-celebration regarding the resulting plague of wrath that follows, which is Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven to the earth in chapter 12. Heaven celebrates, but it is the third woe to the earth and its inhabitants. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, the authority of the nations of the earth was given to Satan (Luke 4:6). The 7th trumpet is part of the process of the authority of the earth reverting back to God and His Christ, which is why Satan and his angels are being cast out. Jesus does not return to the earth at this time, not until after the 7th bowl has been poured out.

In addition, Crossnote is correct in that, the 7th trumpet has nothing to do with the last trumpet of 1 Cor.15:52, as they are two different types of trumpets. The 7th trumpet is a plague of wrath, where the last trumpet is a blessed event where the church is caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Another reason that these two cannot be the same trumpet, is because if the church was gathered here at the 7th trumpet, it would mean that the living church would go through all of the seals and six of the trumpet judgments, which are the wrath of God and which we are not appointed to suffer. The church has to be gathered prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath.