If the Rapture is true, just who are the saints beheaded by the Antichrist?

I haven't ignored passages taken out of context to justify rapture.

Go back and read my post. My words are intended to address bad writing rather than historic doctrine or personal interpretation of scripture.

Whatever mess you wish to promote in your posts ought to be well thought out and organized and coherent. When one writes a statement and then publishes contradictory statements or exceptions, the published words become confusing. This is the purpose of the devil, but not a purpose of good writing.

Whatever you write, do it well and do it consistently.

Unless of course obfuscation is your goal from the beginning........

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

No. What you have done is COMPLETELY PERVERTED the significance of those letters. Since angels have no part in redemption, if those letters were strictly to those angels, those two chapters could be simply ignored by Christians. But the content and intent of those letters makes it clear that all the members of those churches were being held accountable. And the application of those messages is for all churches at all times.

Here's just one verse (Rev 3:20) that gives the lie to your interpretation: Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. "If any man hear my voice" could not possibly apply to an angel, particularly just one messenger to this church. So do you how faulty and irrational your ideas are?

I thought that it was the people who become born again during the tribulation and don't take the mark of the beast. That's why they are beheaded. The church have been removed by rapture and aren't here.

Placing this here for the readers to consider... a post I made earlier today:


Post #2386 - https://christianchat.com/threads/l...the-rapture-is-compelling.197095/post-4549180


[quoting that post]

Consider the following:

Young's Literal Translation -

"and each [a word meaning, 'OF MORE THAN TWO'] in his proper order [/RANK],

[1] a first-fruit Christ, [<--note: NO definite article here]

[2] afterwards those [plural] who are the Christ's, in his presence,"


[3] THEN the end... (i.e. GWTj re: "THE DEAD [/unsaved]" of all times)



Smith's Literal Translation -

And each [a word meaning, 'OF MORE THAN TWO'] in his own order [/RANK]:

[1] the [<--NO definite article here] first fruit Christ;

[2] then they [plural] of Christ in his arrival."


[3] THEN the end... (i.e. GWTj re: "THE DEAD [/unsaved]" of all times)



...because of the "WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with / IDENTIFIED-with] Him" thing, we / "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]") fall into RANK #1 (as "a KIND [a CERTAIN] of firstfruit" James 1:18 [i.e. meaning there is more than ONE "kind"]; God "has chosen [G138 - *heilato/haireo] you firstfruit" 2Th2:13)

[*- 'Probably akin to airo [G142]; to take for oneself, i.e. To prefer' - 'I raise, lift up, take away, remove'... and related also to the word "arren/arsena [G730]" (Rev12:13 - "[which HAD BROUGHT FORTH] the male [G730]");
See also 1Cor12:12 - "For even as the body is one, and has many members, and all the members of the one body, being many, are one body, so also the Christ," (see also Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence], re: "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY")]




Colossians 3:1-4 -

"1 If then you have been raised with [one word; G4862+G1453] Christ, seek the things above, where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on the things above, not the things on the earth. 3 For you have died, and your life has been hidden [PERFECT indicative] with [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Christ in God. 4 When Christ your life may be revealed, then you also will appear with [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him in glory."








[again, "the 144,000" are "firstfruit" of the "WHEAT" harvest, Rev14:4 / Lev23:17 (2nd mention of "firstfruit" in Lev23) "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" (<--that ain't US... See 1Cor10:17 "...we being many ARE ONE BREAD, and ONE BODY" and 1Cor5:7 "...ye are UNleavened")]



[end quoting post]

yes. i believe people will be saved durung the tribulation. i think what they will see will be a good incentive.

How can 'the church' be removed and yet other believers remain to be beheaded? That doesn't square. How does God decide who stays and who leaves? Something isn't right about the rapture teaching.

People generally respond to situations out of a sense of personal preservation, ignorance, cowardice, laziness and prejudice. Nowhere in that formula is there room for salvation. The incentive "they see" will be sufficient for them to crawl inside whatever position of safety they believe will cover them. Ignorance of history and the Bible suggests the false tribulation/rapture doctrine will operate according to some sort of fantasy.

In truth, mankind generally rejects truth. (John 3:19)

In WWII Germany, the people were persuaded of fascist lies (as they are in America today). In WWII Germany, the people were persuaded that persecution of Jews was a good thing and that if they continued to be 'good Germans', as opposed to good Christians, they'd survive the debacle. People will not be saved because of any tribulation because they think they can find a way out on their own.

The only way people can be saved is BY THE LAW.

The purpose of the LAW is to convince one of SIN. It is a personal conviction of the serious nature of God's wrath upon them and of His promise to save from it. The LAW points to the blood of Christ which alone can save. The LAW convinces of the need of salvation and points to the blood of Christ for justification before God. The Bible indicates no other path unto salvation. The LAW, not some fictitious tribulation, is the incentive for salvation. Read the Bible.

As I've stated before the rapture/tribulation/spiritual Israel/etc. are false doctrines promulgated by the Roman Catholic church, the anti-Christ system identified by Revelation, by history and by the blood shed by its leaders. More saints and innocents have been murdered by the RCC than all other religious systems combined. Pay attention to the Bible. Pay attention to history. Stop paying attention to religious slogans and buzz words. They will not save.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Good afternoon!

People can still be saved in the tribulation after the Rapture. They will undergo far more persecution than any we have known, and will be killed, or sought by the government to be killed. But they can be saved.

I've always said that 5 minutes after the Rapture, every church in this land is going to be jam packed SRO.

If the Rapture is true, just who are the saints beheaded by the Antichrist?

The first resurrection that occurs at the return of Christ contains deceased saints from the Mark of the Beast period of the Great Tribulation.

The Dead in Christ Resurrect First at the Return of Christ and then the Rapture occurs:
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Grest Tribulation Saints Resurrected for the First Resurrection at the Return of Christ:
Revelation 20:4-6
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The 'First Resurrection' is not limited to those great tribulation saints who are resurrected in Rev.20:4-6. Its just where the term happens to be used to describe them as being a part of the first resurrection. Every resurrection which takes place prior to the one at the end of the millennial kingdom, is a part of the first resurrection and the church is next. If the first resurrection meant it was the only resurrection that was to take place after the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God, which scripture makes clear that we are not appointed to suffer.

Another issue I would bring up is that, there is no mention of the living being changed and caught up in Revelation 20:4-6, but only a resurrection and that of the great tribulation saints. Why would the Lord tell us to watch and be ready if He was going to send us through the same wrath that the wicked will go through? The reason He told believers to continue watching and to be in a ready state is so that we would be gathered prior to His wrath which follows.

"Now about the times and seasons, brothers, we do not need to write to you. For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief." (1 Thessalonians 5:1-4)

The words "But you brothers" infers the opposite of not escaping, i.e. you brothers will escape. And how will that escape take place? By the way that Paul just described at the end of the previous chapter, where the living will be changed and caught up with those who will have just resurrected. The darkness and the night that Paul says that believers do not belong to, is referring to the sudden destruction, i.e. the time when God's wrath which will be poured out after the church is gathered. Below are some of the stages of the first resurrection:

* Christ the first fruits

* The church at the Lord's appearing (resurrection of the dead and living believers caught up)

* The two witnesses

* The Male Child/144,000 (changed and caught up)

* The great tribulation saints

The above are all stages of the first resurrection.

Since the first resurrection contains saints from the great tribulation and the first resurrection occurs before the rapture (per 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) then the first resurrection and and rapture occur after the great tribulation, just before the millenial kingdom per Revelation 20:4-6.

You are identifying the first resurrection as taking place once and at a particular time. The term 'First' does not mean 'only.' As I demonstrated in the last post, the first resurrection began with Christ as the first fruits of those who rise from the dead, but each group in his own turn. The next group to take part in the first resurrection, will be believers within the church at the Lord's appearing. After that, the two witnesses will also be resurrected as part of the first resurrection, as well as the Male Child/144,000 who will not be resurrected, but will be changed and caught up like the living church will have been. Then after the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, the great tribulation saints will resurrect. The church will have already resurrected and the living changed and caught up at least seven years prior to the great tribulation saints, which both phases of the first resurrection taking place per group.

The first resurrection is not restricted to a specific occurrence, but takes place in stages or phases. The phase of the first resurrection were church is caught up, will be specifically for those believers within the church. Where the other phase of the first resurrection which takes place in Rev.20:4-6 will be only those who were killed during the great tribulation. So, the 'First Resurrection' is made up of stages/phases of resurrections which all fall under the banner of 'first resurrection.'

The term 'First Resurrection' has always thrown people off, because they take the word 'First' to mean 'only' resurrection, which is impossible. But the main reason why the church can't be at that resurrection mentioned in Rev.20:4-6, is because it would put the living church through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments (the entire wrath of God), which believers, who are watching and ready for the Lord's appearing, are not appointed to suffer. The reason that the great tribulation saints are on the earth during that time, is because these are those who will not have been believers prior to Christ's appearing and therefore will not be gathered with the church. However, they will become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath.

The order of the resurrection:

Click to expand...

* Christ the first fruits - If you are first fruits, then there others to follow, but each in his own turn/order

* Afterward they that are Christ's at His coming (The church)

* Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Where and when is Death destroyed?

"Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire." - Rev.20:4-6

The destruction of death takes place after the thousand years and during the great white throne judgment. So, Paul here is not speaking chronologically, because we know that those at Christ's coming will be the church and following that is the entire tribulation period. At the end of the that we have the Lord returning to the earth to end the age, with the beast and the false prophet3 being thrown alive into the lake of fire and Satan being cast into the Abyss, which is then followed by the millennial kingdom. My point being that, the end doesn't come right after those who are resurrected at Christ's appearing.


It states that Christ is the first fruits of the first resurrection of those who rise from the dead, which means that there are others who belong to the first resurrection, which has stages to it. Christ the first fruits of the first resurrection, then those (the church) at His coming (John 14:1-3, 1 Cor.15:51-53, I Thess.4:16-17). After God's wrath and when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, then those who were killed during the great tribulation will be resurrected, also being a part of the first resurrection. Every resurrection which takes place prior to the end of the thousand years, is a phase of the first resurrection. Bless and holy are those who take part in the first resurrection, for on such, the second death has no power.


First Resurrection includes:

* Christ the first fruits

* The church at the Lord's appearing

* The two witnesses

* The Male Child/144,000 (living and caught up to God's throne)

* The great tribulation saints (after the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish His kingdom)

Since the first resurrection contains saints from the great tribulation and the first resurrection occurs before the rapture (per 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) then the first resurrection and and rapture occur after the great tribulation, just before the millenial kingdom per Revelation 20:4-6.

The order of the resurrection:
1 Corinthians 15:20-25
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

-Christ alone is known as the singular firstfruits resurrection.
-Afterwards, "they that are Christ's at His coming" which is what the first resurrection is.
-Then "cometh the end" when He delivers up the kingdom to God because He must reign until all enemies are under His feet. (This is the millenial kingdom reference)

There's no discrepancies here with 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 20:4-6, or 1 Corinthians 15:20-25. They're referring to the same post-tribulation event as proofed by the texts.

Think of it this way Runningman: Just as the church is a collective name representing every believer that belongs to it, the term 'First Resurrection' is also a collective term representing different stages of each group that will be resurrected prior to the last resurrection which takes place after the millennium and during the great white throne judgment. The last resurrection will be for all of the wicked who will have died without faith from the beginning until the end.

I've always said that 5 minutes after the Rapture, every church in this land is going to be jam packed SRO.

I thought that it was the people who become born again during the tribulation and don't take the mark of the beast. That's why they are beheaded. The church have been removed by rapture and aren't here.

yes. i believe people will be saved durung the tribulation. i think what they will see will be a good incentive.

People can still be saved in the tribulation after the Rapture. They will undergo far more persecution than any we have known, and will be killed, or sought by the government to be killed. But they can be saved.

If lost people will not believe the 'witness' they have now, what are the chances of them being saved if their only source for the gospel message were to be removed?


The only incentive people are going to have is what they have now.


There is no such thing as 'tribulation' after [the] 'Rapture'.

Your 'persecution' statement just describes things that will happen between now and the end of the 'tribulation' (period).

Well if you have told family, friends and other people about the gospel and of the upcoming events of rapture and tribulation and they have not believed you and now people have suddenly disappeared and there is chaos in the world. Now the things you have said to them are not only a witness but have actually now taken place.. Now, they are wondering that what you warned them about is truth. That will speak to them alot.

Also my ex church have letters of explanation to anybody left behind as to what has happened as well as instructions of what to do, namely giving their life to the Lord and not taking the mark of the beast. I have heard many people leaving such letters and instructions to their loved ones if they have refused to listen in their houses, cars etc.

There is also all the information on you tube they may come across as they try and make sense of what just happened as well as cd's, tapes and books people have left behind. There is probably a whole lot more that I can't think of atm and of course God has ways that we don't know of or understand that he may do during that time.