If the Rapture is true, just who are the saints beheaded by the Antichrist?

[Ahwatukee]

Those who don't take the mark will be beheaded

Yes, many will be beheaded, but not all. For if all were beheaded, then there would be no mortal Gentiles to enter into the millennial kingdom. However, we know that Gentiles do enter in because God's word says so:

"He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore."

The above scripture takes place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. The fact they are beating their weapons into plowshares and pruning hooks, would demonstrate that they will enter into the millennial kingdom to farm and tend vineyards.

It's like saying, "anyone who speeds will get a speeding ticket." However, not everyone is caught speeding. Then you have the following scripture regarding the great tribulation saints:

"If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity they will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword they will be killed." This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God's people."

The fact that the fate of some of those great tribulation saints will be to go into captivity, would also demonstrate that not all of them are killed.

If all of the great tribulation saints introduced in Revelation 7:9-17, which will be from every nation, tribe, people and language, were all killed, then there would be no Gentiles on the earth during the thousand year reign of Christ. Then there is this information regarding the millennial kingdom:

"Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 17If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain. 18If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The Lord b will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 19This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. - Zech.14:16

 

[ChoirLoft]

Yes, many will be beheaded, but not all. For if all were beheaded, then there would be no mortal Gentiles to enter into the millennial kingdom. However, we know that Gentiles do enter in because God's word says so:

"He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore."

The above scripture takes place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. The fact they are beating their weapons into plowshares and pruning hooks, would demonstrate that they will enter into the millennial kingdom to farm and tend vineyards.

It's like saying, "anyone who speeds will get a speeding ticket." However, not everyone is caught speeding. Then you have the following scripture regarding the great tribulation saints:

"If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity they will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword they will be killed." This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God's people."

The fact that the fate of some of those great tribulation saints will be to go into captivity, would also demonstrate that not all of them are killed.

If all of the great tribulation saints introduced in Revelation 7:9-17, which will be from every nation, tribe, people and language, were all killed, then there would be no Gentiles on the earth during the thousand year reign of Christ. Then there is this information regarding the millennial kingdom:

"Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 17If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain. 18If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The Lord b will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 19This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. - Zech.14:16

Wow.

You can't even misrepresent scripture coherently. Not only is your premise faulty, your explanation is full of exceptions.

Confusion reigns in your posts. I suggest for the betterment of all that you reconsider your flawed ideology and post it when you can present a clear and concise tale. Whether it be true or false it ought to at least be consistent.

It isn't. Consequently it reads like something a middle school kid would write in an effort to create fantasy.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Ahwatukee]

I argued with a friend yesterday who claimed that the Rapture is going to happen. I asked her where it was in the Bible and she said that it's not in the Bible but it's true. The pastor at bible study taught that we don't have to worry about anything because we're going to be raptured out.

If the Rapture is true then just who are the saints whoa re beheaded for their faith?

And unless you didn't know this - our government ordered a number of guillotines and so did Canada. In fact Canada is constructing concentration-style camps.

There are many scriptures that proclaim that the church will be gathered prior to God's wrath. But the most important one, is understanding the legal principle here, which is that Jesus took upon himself the wrath of God which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe in Christ, because the punishment that brought believers peace was placed upon Him. Therefore, God's wrath has been satisfied for the believer, which is why scripture states that we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath.

That time will be unprecedented, i.e. the worst time in the history of the world. With just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet-- a fourth and a third, respectively-- this would equal over half the earths population within just the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. And that's not including the fatalities from trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor from the bowl judgments. This is why Jesus said, if those days were allowed to go on any longer than the prophesied time, no one on earth would survive.

 

[CS1]

Wow.

You can't even misrepresent scripture coherently. Not only is your premise faulty, your explanation is full of exceptions.

Confusion reigns in your posts. I suggest for the betterment of all that you reconsider your flawed ideology and post it when you can present a clear and concise tale. Whether it be true or false it ought to at least be consistent.

It isn't. Consequently it reads like something a middle school kid would write in an effort to create fantasy.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

your comment is uncalled for and maybe you should try using the Bible to refute the comment of another person. it will have better results. In addition, are you a pre-trib, post-trib, or no trib person?

The context of Imminency of Christ return has been the normal collective response in orthodox Christianity.

 

[CS1]

There are many scriptures that proclaim that the church will be gathered prior to God's wrath. But the most important one, is understanding the legal principle here, which is that Jesus took upon himself the wrath of God which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe in Christ, because the punishment that brought believers peace was placed upon Him. Therefore, God's wrath has been satisfied for the believer, which is why scripture states that we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath.

That time will be unprecedented, i.e. the worst time in the history of the world. With just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet-- a fourth and a third, respectively-- this would equal over half the earths population within just the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. And that's not including the fatalities from trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor from the bowl judgments. This is why Jesus said, if those days were allowed to go on any longer than the prophesied time, no one on earth would survive.

well amen I have not been subject to wrath, yet I can be called home to day and miss everything which would be too like a type of rapture. And I believe God throughout the Bible has saved those from HIS judgment as a normative.

Adam and Eve God took skins and covered them, God did not allow them to eat from the tree of life, Noah made the Ark

Lott was taken out of Sodom
Moses and the red sea
Enoch
Elijah
daniel
Shadrack Meshack and a Badchicano

 

[Ahwatukee]

well amen I have not been subject to wrath, yet I can be called home to day and miss everything which would be too like a type of rapture. And I believe God throughout the Bible has saved those from HIS judgment as a normative.

Adam and Eve God took skins and covered them, God did not allow them to eat from the tree of life, Noah made the Ark

Lott was taken out of Sodom
Moses and the red sea
Enoch
Elijah
daniel
Shadrack Meshack and a Badchicano

Well, as I am sure that you know, the gathering that I am speaking about is not the death of the body where our spirits depart and go to be in the presence of the Lord. I'm speaking about the event where the dead are raised immortal and glorified, followed by the living being changed immortal and glorified and caught up with them. Faithful believers who are alive when the resurrection takes place, will all miss out on God's wrath.

Those who have died in Christ from the on-set of the church are waiting heaven-side for the resurrection of their immortal and glorified bodies, while we who are still alive are waiting from this side.

 

[ewq1938]

Those who don't take the mark will be beheaded

Revelation actually doesn't say that. Paul spoke of people surviving the Great Tribulation and they are changed and raptured. None of them took the mark but they weren't beheaded. Some will be beheaded for refusing the mark and other things but not all shall be.

 

[ewq1938]

Formulated in the late 1500's by Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera, the rapture as well as many other deliberate misrepresentations of End Times prophecy was meant to deter Protestants from an accurate appraisal of the Bible.

The pre-trib rapture doctrine existed LONG before that and LONG before the Catholic church was founded. Paul actually addressed the false idea that Christ could just show up one day and he listed two major events that have to happen before the second coming happens. Those two things are things that happen during the Great Tribulation so Paul taught a post trib rapture.

 

[EnglishChick]

Revelation actually doesn't say that. Paul spoke of people surviving the Great Tribulation and they are changed and raptured. None of them took the mark but they weren't beheaded. Some will be beheaded for refusing the mark and other things but not all shall be.

ThAnks for clarifying that and correcting me.

 

[ewq1938]

ThAnks for clarifying that and correcting me.

No problem.

 

[ChoirLoft]

There are many scriptures that proclaim that the church will be gathered prior to God's wrath. But the most important one, is understanding the legal principle here, which is that Jesus took upon himself the wrath of God which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe in Christ, because the punishment that brought believers peace was placed upon Him. Therefore, God's wrath has been satisfied for the believer, which is why scripture states that we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath.

That time will be unprecedented, i.e. the worst time in the history of the world. With just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet-- a fourth and a third, respectively-- this would equal over half the earths population within just the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. And that's not including the fatalities from trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor from the bowl judgments. This is why Jesus said, if those days were allowed to go on any longer than the prophesied time, no one on earth would survive.

While your core argument is essentially true, it lacks accuracy. Therein does the post-protestant church err. The devil, as they say, is in the details.

Scripture does NOT insist the church will be gathered prior to God's wrath. In fact the term 'church' has been perverted to imply gentile believers only. Biblically a church is defined as a gathering of believers. This is an important point, missed by most Christians. The definition of a church has nothing to do with real estate development ( which most pastors dwell upon), it has nothing to do with denominations (which have fought literal wars to defend), and it has nothing at all to do with dogma and doctrine (which is deemed most important of all by folks who are Biblically illiterate). What then does it say?

When a person becomes a believer they become a Jew (Romans 2:29).

Thus the more accurate statement would imply only Jewish believers are harvested unto the kingdom of God at the end of the age. The dogma of Replacement Theology or Spiritual Israel or Supersessionism was asserted by the Roman Catholic Church in the late 1500's so as to pervert the understanding taught by Reformation fathers. (Google the doctrine of Futurism & Francisco Ribera) Thus the RCC asserts its own authority over that of scripture - a prophecy made by the prophet Danial and John's Revelation. Scripture makes no separation between Jew and Gentile because all believers become Jews. It's not the other way around as has been accepted by the post-protestant church as it marches in lock step with Rome.

The dogma of rapture and tribulation are likewise perverse doctrines based not upon scripture, but upon Futurism - RCC predominance as the anti-Christ religious system predicted by Danial and Revelation. The 'church' as defined by Rome will NOT be evacuated during some terrible time of persecution. In fact, Biblical consistency and context suggests quite the opposite as has human history. God promises to be WITH His people throughout trouble, not to vacate them from it. Ask any experienced believer you know. Did God execute some miraculous escape plan when trouble visited their lives or was He an ever present help throughout. THIS IS how faith blossoms into the courageous flower of spiritual boldness.

God NEVER promised to evacuate His people from trouble, but instead walks with us in the midst of the flames as He did with Shadrach Meshach and Abednego. Therefore scripture encourages us to be of good courage and to walk in the integrity of God's promise of deliverance. The Roman Catholic escape clause is a perverse doctrine of demons and cannot be accepted or believed. It is an abomination in the face of God's love and truth.

Finally, the sacrifice of the Lamb of God was NOT made to satisfy God's wrath ... for the believer, as you posted. It was made for all Jews - for the entire group, one time only and for all who surrender to God. God's wrath is poured out upon all humanity. Only those who accept the blood of the Lamb of God will be spared. The sacrifice is accepted by humans by faith and by faith are they delivered from wrath. The only real separation implied by scripture is between the living and the dead.

Hope this helps put a sharper point on things.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[CS1]

While your core argument is essentially true, it lacks accuracy. Therein does the post-protestant church err. The devil, as they say, is in the details.

Scripture does NOT insist the church will be gathered prior to God's wrath. In fact the term 'church' has been perverted to imply gentile believers only. Biblically a church is defined as a gathering of believers. This is an important point, missed by most Christians. The definition of a church has nothing to do with real estate development ( which most pastors dwell upon), it has nothing to do with denominations (which have fought literal wars to defend), and it has nothing at all to do with dogma and doctrine (which is deemed most important of all by folks who are Biblically illiterate). What then does it say?

When a person becomes a believer they become a Jew (Romans 2:29).

Thus the more accurate statement would imply only Jewish believers are harvested unto the kingdom of God at the end of the age. The dogma of Replacement Theology or Spiritual Israel or Supersessionism was asserted by the Roman Catholic Church in the late 1500's so as to pervert the understanding taught by Reformation fathers. (Google the doctrine of Futurism & Francisco Ribera) Thus the RCC asserts its own authority over that of scripture - a prophecy made by the prophet Danial and John's Revelation. Scripture makes no separation between Jew and Gentile because all believers become Jews. It's not the other way around as has been accepted by the post-protestant church as it marches in lock step with Rome.

The dogma of rapture and tribulation are likewise perverse doctrines based not upon scripture, but upon Futurism - RCC predominance as the anti-Christ religious system predicted by Danial and Revelation. The 'church' as defined by Rome will NOT be evacuated during some terrible time of persecution. In fact, Biblical consistency and context suggests quite the opposite as has human history since the words were penned to paper. God promises to be WITH His people throughout trouble, not to vacate them from it. Ask any experience believer you know. Did God execute some miraculous escape plan when trouble visited their lives or was He an ever present help throughout.

God NEVER promised to evacuate His people from trouble, but instead walks with us in the midst of the flames as He did with Shadrach Meshach and Abednego. Therefore scripture encourages us to be of good courage and to walk in the integrity of God's promise of deliverance. The Roman Catholic escape clause is a perverse doctrine of demons and cannot be accepted or believed. It is an abomination in the face of God's love and truth.

Finally, the sacrifice of the Lamb of God was NOT made to satisfy God's wrath ... for the believer, as you posted. It was made for all Jews - for the entire group, one time only and for all who surrender to God. God's wrath is poured out upon all humanity. Only those who accept the blood of the Lamb of God will be spared. The sacrifice is accepted by humans by faith and by faith are they delivered from wrath. The only real separation implied by scripture is between the living and the dead.

Hope this helps put a sharper point on things.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

lol you say

"While your core argument is essentially true, it lacks accuracy. "

in REV we see those saints coming with Christ and we see those Jews who come to know Christ during the great tribulation Where did those saints come from that are coming with Christ as spoken in The Book of Revelation?

The argument or orthodox positions are three pre-trib, post-trib, no trib on the rapture.

The church collectively for the sake of unity all agree on the doctrine of imminence at anytime Jesus could come.

 

[ChoirLoft]

The pre-trib rapture doctrine existed LONG before that and LONG before the Catholic church was founded. Paul actually addressed the false idea that Christ could just show up one day and he listed two major events that have to happen before the second coming happens. Those two things are things that happen during the Great Tribulation so Paul taught a post trib rapture.

Doctrine is that which is created in the mind of man with scripture being used to support false assumptions. Rapture, tribulation, and Replacement Theology are all examples of human doctrine. Doctrine comes first with scripture wagging like a dog's tail after the fact.

Biblical truth is that which is consistent throughout the entire length and breadth of the ENTIRE collection of scripture - not just a snippet or two lifted here and there. Biblical truth is determined by mining God's Word to find consistent themes. Rapture and tribulation and Spiritual Israel aren't among them.

The problem with the post-protestant church is its constant and continual insistence in support of Roman Catholic FUTURISM (as well as the more modern form identified as DISPENSATIONALISM).

Argument has often been made that Futurism/Dispensationalism pre-existed the RCC, but history suggests otherwise. While Francisco Ribera and John Nelson Darby published and refurbished the ideas, they were indeed present in one form or another from as far back as St. Augustine and further. Jews perverted God's LAW (Torah) by creating their own - the Talmud. (LAW of grace vs. law of works) The gentile church has perverted God's knowledge by substituting the doctrines of the church instead. The funny part is neither Jew nor gentile stops to actually THINK about the logical convolutions in their respective religious ideology. They both accept lies passed down to them by their predecessors.

For example, post-protestant churches entirely reject God's LAW (Torah) despite Jesus' words that He didn't come to destroy it (Matt 5:27) or rewrite it (Matt 5:18). Because of this aberration of dogma, the church wanders in a sea of confusion and illogic - stuck in mud of its own creation and ignorant of the basis of God's mercy and hope.

Few, very few, care about the pursuit of Biblical truth. Instead they satisfy themselves with constant regurgitation of middle school level religious rubbish that will do absolutely nothing to satisfy one's need for truth. In the end, many leave the Church of Lies and seek solace in the world (where it can be found in only temporary forms).

Study to show yourself approved unto God. Eating the vomit of ages won't do it.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[CS1]

Doctrine is that which is created in the mind of man with scripture being used to support false assumptions. Rapture, tribulation, and Replacement Theology are all examples of human doctrine. Doctrine comes first with scripture wagging like a dog's tail after the fact.

Biblical truth is that which is consistent throughout the entire length and breadth of the ENTIRE collection of scripture - not just a snippet or two lifted here and there. Biblical truth is determined by mining God's Word to find consistent themes. Rapture and tribulation and Spiritual Israel aren't among them.

The problem with the post-protestant church is its constant and continual insistence in support of Roman Catholic FUTURISM (as well as the more modern form identified as DISPENSATIONALISM).

Argument has often been made that Futurism/Dispensationalism pre-existed the RCC, but history suggests otherwise. While Francisco Ribera and John Nelson Darby published and refurbished the ideas, they were indeed present in one form or another from as far back as St. Augustine and further. Jews perverted God's LAW (Torah) by creating their own - the Talmud. (LAW of grace vs. law of works) The gentile church has perverted God's knowledge by substituting the doctrines of the church instead. The funny part is neither Jew nor gentile stops to actually THINK about the logical convolutions in their respective religious ideology. They both accept lies passed down to them by their predecessors.

For example, post-protestant churches entirely reject God's LAW (Torah) despite Jesus' words that He didn't come to destroy it (Matt 5:27) or rewrite it (Matt 5:18). Because of this aberration of dogma, the church wanders in a sea of confusion and illogic - stuck in mud of its own creation and ignorant of the basis of God's mercy and hope.

Few, very few, care about the pursuit of Biblical truth. Instead they satisfy themselves with constant regurgitation of middle school level religious rubbish that will do absolutely nothing to satisfy one's need for truth. In the end, many leave the Church of Lies and seek solace in the world (where it can be found in only temporary forms).

Study to show yourself approved unto God. Eating the vomit of ages won't do it.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

You said :

"Doctrine is that which is created in the mind of man with scripture being used to support false assumptions. "

ok, you do know doctrine means teaching right? So, where did you get your doctrine or teaching from?

 

[Runningman]

If the Rapture is true, just who are the saints beheaded by the Antichrist?

Members of the church who will be present during the great tribulation. @saintrose

The first resurrection of those who belong to Christ occur when He returns.

1 Corinthians 15:23
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming

So the first recurrection occurs when Christ returns.

Saints from the great tribulation will also be included in the first resurrection:

Revelation 20:4-6
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This means that saints are not raptured out before the great tribulation because the first resurrection includes martyred church saints from the great tribulation.

Also be sure to trust Matthew 24:29-31 which states Jesus returns after the tribulation to gather His elect.

Matthew 24:29-31
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Jackson123]

I argued with a friend yesterday who claimed that the Rapture is going to happen. I asked her where it was in the Bible and she said that it's not in the Bible but it's true. The pastor at bible study taught that we don't have to worry about anything because we're going to be raptured out.

If the Rapture is true then just who are the saints whoa re beheaded for their faith?

And unless you didn't know this - our government ordered a number of guillotines and so did Canada. In fact Canada is constructing concentration-style camps.

Saint beheaded on tribulation, and rapture happen after tribulation

So yes rapture is true but happen after tribulation

 

[ChoirLoft]

You said :

"Doctrine is that which is created in the mind of man with scripture being used to support false assumptions. "

ok, you do know doctrine means teaching right? So, where did you get your doctrine or teaching from?

I believe you and the readers understand the point I was making. Your reply is argumentative. For entertainment purposes I post the following definition of doctrine from the Merriam-Webster online dictionary. Please read it.

Doctrine:
1. A principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of beliefs. Ex: Catholic doctrine/dogma
2. A statement of fundamental governmental policy. Ex: The Truman Doctrine
3. law: A principle of law established through past decisions. Ex. Precedent

My point is that post-protestant doctrine is considered as some sort of proof of Biblical truth when in fact it can be a very serious aberration of religious dogma/principle/law. In fact it is not. It is not proof of anything except dogmatic attitudes about religion supported mostly by popular agreement and tiny portions of scripture to suggest its spiritual root. In point of fact, the root is usually imaginary if not altogether dead.

Your post asks where I got my knowledge. Here is an answer you will certainly not accept. It is true, nonetheless.

“Where did this man get these ideas?” they asked. “What is this wisdom He has been given?" - Mark 6:2
"And they took offense at Him." - Mark 6:3b

Do you not take offense at my words also? I am not the Christ, but I write knowledge gleaned from the Bible, not some YouTube talking head, not some secularized pastor and certainly not from middle school level RCC doctrine forced down the throat of post-protestants. Most faux-Christians are satisfied with parroting religious slogans and buzz words without an ounce of understanding or effort to examine where these ideas originate. The religion of the masses today is subjective - subject to the changes of secular winds and political correctness NOT the objective truth of God's LAW.

Let's look at two good examples:
Revelation chapter 2 & 3: Letters to various churches have been misinterpreted to apply to false prophecy of the End Times. In point of fact those letters reveal the inner workings of heavenly authorities and powers. The letters are addressed to the angelic supervisors of specific churches, not to the human congregations. The angels of those churches had in some cases botched their jobs. The reply of Christ is that He'd remove the angels from their posts and take a personal hand in the matter. It has nothing at all to do with an outline of prophetic future history. Read those chapters again with fresh eyes. Don't read into it. Read from it.

This is the principle of discernment that has been abandoned by the post-protestant church.
Christians read into scripture, not from it.

Secondly, some of the primary scripture snippets used to support the dogma of the rapture occur in Matthew and Luke. Scripture suggests certain individuals will be suddenly seized from earthly reality to some ethereal destination. As usual the final verse is ignored, forgotten or deliberately misrepresented. Luke 17:37 tells the reader where these persons are taken.

37“Where, Lord?” they asked. Jesus answered, “Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.”

The reference is ignored by post-protestants because they are unaware of the destination - gehenna or the city dump of Jerusalem. Those taken by vultures/eagles are delivered to the place of destruction. Thus the passage used to justify rapture has nothing to do with celestial escapism, but rather divine retribution and judgment. Yet faux=Christians continue to embrace a false doctrine simply because it appeals to their sense of escapism rather than faith in a god who will deliver them through any imaginable difficulty of life.

Bottom line is that RCC End Times dogma encourages Christians in cowardice - faithlessness that does not please God but appeals instead to a personal desire to ignore or escape trouble. Very very few will open the Bible and read its words. (John 3:19) Instead, of truth they substitute lies and myth to justify spiritual cowardice and disbelief.

I submit the matters I've learned so that others may benefit. Those that reject my suggestion that they've been fed lies will continue to live in the swamp of religious myth for the rest of their natural lives - unable or unwilling to delve into the deep things of God. It is my hope and wish that they will throw off the chains of false doctrine and read out of the Bible rather than push doctrine into it.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

 

[ChoirLoft]

your comment is uncalled for and maybe you should try using the Bible to refute the comment of another person. it will have better results. In addition, are you a pre-trib, post-trib, or no trib person?

The context of Imminency of Christ return has been the normal collective response in orthodox Christianity.

Go back and read my post. My words are intended to address bad writing rather than historic doctrine or personal interpretation of scripture.

Whatever mess you wish to promote in your posts ought to be well thought out and organized and coherent. When one writes a statement and then publishes contradictory statements or exceptions, the published words become confusing. This is the purpose of the devil, but not a purpose of good writing.

Whatever you write, do it well and do it consistently.

Unless of course obfuscation is your goal from the beginning........

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Nehemiah6]

The letters are addressed to the angelic supervisors of specific churches, not to the human congregations.

This is completely false since those messages would be meaningless if they were not for the members of those churches. In fact the words themselves show this.
And there is no indication that those angels were supervisors either. They were messengers assigned to those churches. As to your comment on the Rapture, you have ignored the actual passages which speak of it.

 

[ChoirLoft]

This is completely false since those messages would be meaningless if they were not for the members of those churches. In fact the words themselves show this.
And there is no indication that those angels were supervisors either. They were messengers assigned to those churches. As to your comment on the Rapture, you have ignored the actual passages which speak of it.

READ THE WORDS OF SCRIPTURE.

What do they say? The letters of Revelation are addressed to angelic administrators of those specific churches.

Don't spin the words to your own meaning.
Don't insist something that isn't there.
Don't read into the Bible, read out of it.

THIS IS the problem of the post-protestant church. It is so enamored of its own dogma that it cannot and will not READ the words written in scripture.

The words aren't meaningless, since they convey the attitude of Jesus who it is said will assume the duties Himself. "If you want a thing done right you must do it yourself."

The meaning and intent of Revelation's church letters does indeed indicate that each church was assigned an angelic supervisor or administrator or guide or whatever one chooses to call it. These creatures were apparently assigned the care of the respective churches.

Read also that God intended to remove those angels from their posts. There is no judgment implied upon the congregations at all.

I haven't ignored passages taken out of context to justify rapture. The post-protestant church doesn't have a monopoly on deliberate misrepresentation of scripture. It now marches in lock-step with Vatican doctrine and completely ignores the precepts of protestant fathers five hundred years ago. Your vehement allegiance to this fragment of RCC dogma is clear evidence.

The rapture, among other aberrations of scripture such as eternal torment of hell, were created as doctrine first. Scripture was then added to the doctrine so as to make it look correct. This isn't the only instance, either. Secular ideology does the same thing as for example the justification of UFO appearance in scripture. That isn't true either, but it doesn't stop secular folks from adopting bits and pieces of God's Word to justify their own ideas. The confusion thus swings both ways because some Christians actually buy the secular explanations without studying the Word at all.

The great SIN of the post-protestant church is that it totally rejects the OT, except for minor readings and quotations to support some aberrant sermon or ideology. The result is that post-protestant Christians are caught in a web of lies they cannot escape. They cannot escape because they prefer religious slogans and buzz words to the actual intent of scripture. One must DIG to get at it and one must DIG out the words in the OT as well as the NT.

Rapture is false because it's taken out of context. The overwhelming theme of scripture is that God will see His people THROUGH trouble, not evacuate them from it. This is the glory of God and the foundation of faith for those who trust in Him. Trust in God's provision in times of difficulty is the core and nut of courage and faith. Doctrines like the rapture are the ideology of cowards liars and the Biblically illiterate.

You cannot and will not see the truth of things because you prefer to believe the lies you've been taught. If you take the time to actually read the Bible, such as chapters 2 & 3 of Revelation, you'll learn something new - something wonderful God is revealing to the sons of man about how His kingdom is managed. If you refuse good counsel you will live the rest of your natural life trapped in the web of false religion you have embraced. You have the ability to escape, but will not make use of it. I pity you, sir.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...