By Nature Children of Wrath as others !

reneweddaybyday · May 4, 2021

Nope ... not confused. All born again ones were children of wrath as described in Eph 2:3 and, as children of wrath, we were headed toward the potsherd.

When we did not reject the gospel which was preached to us, we were quickened (made alive) as shown in Eph 2:5.

Ephesians 2:5-7 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

The previous chapter in Ephesians explains exactly what occurred:

Ephesians 1:12-13 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

We trusted after we heard the gospel ... after we heard the gospel we believed ... after we believed we were sealed.

We've been over this truth before brightfame52. Please believe Scripture.

lamad · May 4, 2021

Magenta said:

I got it!

Pilgrimshope · May 4, 2021

brightfame52 said:

Try reading the section

“And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind;

and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:1-3‬ ‭KJV‬

you are working hard but it’s hard to get over what’s there every human being is already condemned the gospel is about who his going to be saved. Whatbpaul
Is saying is you were just like the others when you were serving sin you were all dead in sin and were objects of Gods wrath

BUT NOW he has made you alive from the dead and included you into the kingdom despite your sin that had you in death .

Every man was in the group of his wrath , those who believe the gospel and come to repentance are his chosen , those who continue serving Satan in the world belong to him they are serving his spirit

Some still do

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:16-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it seems like you are trying hard to support an idea but Paul’s words are plain right there definitely he’s saying we the church used to be in the group of wrath because we used to serve sin . Now Christians who repent have been brought to life in Christ and stopped serving sin

Dino246 · May 4, 2021

brightfame52 said:

You are claiming that there are sinners who are never under God's wrath. That doesn't jibe with Scripture.

brightfame52 · May 5, 2021

reneweddaybyday said:

Nope ... not confused. All born again ones were children of wrath as described in Eph 2:3 and, as children of wrath, we were headed toward the potsherd.

When we did not reject the gospel which was preached to us, we were quickened (made alive) as shown in Eph 2:5.

Ephesians 2:5-7 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

The previous chapter in Ephesians explains exactly what occurred:

Ephesians 1:12-13 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

We trusted after we heard the gospel ... after we heard the gospel we believed ... after we believed we were sealed.

We've been over this truth before brightfame52. Please believe Scripture.

Apparently you have ignored the things I posted.

brightfame52 · May 5, 2021

Pilgrimshope said:

Try reading the section

“And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind;

and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:1-3‬ ‭KJV‬

you are working hard but it’s hard to get over what’s there every human being is already condemned the gospel is about who his going to be saved. Whatbpaul
Is saying is you were just like the others when you were serving sin you were all dead in sin and were objects of Gods wrath

BUT NOW he has made you alive from the dead and included you into the kingdom despite your sin that had you in death .

Every man was in the group of his wrath , those who believe the gospel and come to repentance are his chosen , those who continue serving Satan in the world belong to him they are serving his spirit

Some still do

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:16-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it seems like you are trying hard to support an idea but Paul’s words are plain right there definitely he’s saying we the church used to be in the group of wrath because we used to serve sin . Now Christians who repent have been brought to life in Christ and stopped serving sin

I can see the things I have posted went over your head, just like I never posted them.

brightfame52 · May 5, 2021

Dino246 said:

Correct, and say why ? What were my reasons why ?

reneweddaybyday · May 5, 2021

brightfame52 said:

Nope. Not at all. In all actuality, it is you who ignores what I and others have posted.

Evmur · May 5, 2021

brightfame52 said:

Eph 2:3

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Who are the we here Paul is referring to as by nature were being the children of wrath ? No doubt he included himself by employing the pronoun we.

He's meaning believers as himself, even the Chosen ones in Christ before the foundation of the world as characterize in Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Now with this established as to whom Paul is writing of in Eph 2:3 as once being the children of wrath as others, does this designation mean that at one time believers, the Chosen of God were by nature under Gods wrath ? Absolutely not, by no means possible were the believers in Christ, the Chosen of God ever under Gods Wrath as others. Neither does it read in Eph 2:3 that any were under Gods wrath.

So what does Paul mean here by this designation " were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."?

Here are a few things Paul may mean. There are men and women that are definitely under Gods wrath, these would be the vessels of wrath, who are destined for wrath Rom 9:22

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Now by nature the Chosen of God when unbelievers do visibly appear as vessels of wrath fitted for destruction simply because they sinners naturally like they are.

And being sinners as the vessels of wrath are, they are also most deserving of Gods wrath and destruction as all men are by nature.

And also, by nature the Chosen are wrathful children towards God as other sinners are, meaning their disposition towards the True God is one of wrathful, enmity against Him as in Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Col 1:21

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

The word for enemies here in the above is the word echthros :

From a primary echtho (to hate); hateful (passively, odious, or actively, hostile)

hated, odious, hateful
hostile, hating, and opposing another
1. used of men as at enmity with God by their sin
  1. opposing (God) in the mind

And the word hateful means resentful, even wrathful !

The elect/chosen by nature as in common with all other men are carnal in the flesh, and heres what Paul writes about them in the flesh Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity[hatred] against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Yet with all this foul disposition we naturally have against the True God, as the Chosen of God, they're never under Gods wrath . They are never vessels of wrath God is fitting for destruction, Gods disposition towards them, even when they are enemies towards Himself, is one of Love, Mercy, and Reconciliation, and Peace through the death of Christ for them. Rom 5:8,10;Eph 2:4; 1 Jn 2:2

So believers, the Chosen in Christ are never under Gods Wrath and scripture doesnt anywhere teach that, not even Eph 2:3 !

... he says even as others

Evmur · May 5, 2021

... I would say God's wrath is suspended for everyone in this grace epoch. God has expended His wrath upon His Son, now He is reconciling the world to Himself.

To me it is amusing that christians preach a loving God who has a bludgeon behind His back

Dino246 · May 5, 2021

brightfame52 said:

Your reasons for why are irrelevant, because your assertion contradicts Scripture. Sort out your assertion in light of Scripture, and you won't need to invent reasons to explain it.

Pilgrimshope · May 5, 2021

brightfame52 said:

yes because you are so far above me probably

brightfame52 · May 5, 2021

reneweddaybyday said:

Yes you have !

brightfame52 · May 5, 2021

Evmur said:

I know, so apparently you not paying much attention to what I have posted.

brightfame52 · May 5, 2021

Dino246 said:

Lol, then further discussion wth you about this thread is irrelevant !

Pilgrimshope · May 5, 2021

Evmur said:

or is God telling man the truth about a terrible day coming so believers can respond and escape ? Keep
In mind Paul’s written this to the church

“Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God isn’t causing anyone to go to hell he’s telling us about it so we don’t go there it’s up to us to respond to the savior and escape the day above . He doesn’t save people who choose to live in sin he’s calling them out of it so they don’t have to face the judgement

we can repent and be forgiven now and have our sins remitted through christ. It’s not Gods fault that man brought sin and death upon ourselves , he has been telling us how to be saved for a very long time but no matter how we look at it we have to believe what he said about salvation he’s the only mediator who can give us a relationship with God there’s no other way but to go through Jesus and his word

“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Gods wrath is upon the world and all in the world , and his gospel is preached in the world for salvation from the wrath to come as shown above but more so driven home here

“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s more like there’s a flood coming that’s going to drown the earth because of evil and God has now told us that it’s coming , and he told us how to be saved and avoid drowning and said believe and be saved from the terrible flood coming on the world

Gods the same as then he’s telling us the truth about eternal life the issue is so few are willing to believe what he said about it . He does t have a bludgeon and doesn’t make threats we’re under a huge gigantic bludgeon in satans hand and God is offering us an escape into glory but we have to accept his version of salvstion because that’s the truth

Dino246 · May 5, 2021

brightfame52 said:

Another shining example of sense and reason.

Runningman · May 5, 2021

brightfame52 said:

Eph 2:3

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Who are the we here Paul is referring to as by nature were being the children of wrath ? No doubt he included himself by employing the pronoun we.

He's meaning believers as himself, even the Chosen ones in Christ before the foundation of the world as characterize in Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Now with this established as to whom Paul is writing of in Eph 2:3 as once being the children of wrath as others, does this designation mean that at one time believers, the Chosen of God were by nature under Gods wrath ? Absolutely not, by no means possible were the believers in Christ, the Chosen of God ever under Gods Wrath as others. Neither does it read in Eph 2:3 that any were under Gods wrath.

So what does Paul mean here by this designation " were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."?

Here are a few things Paul may mean. There are men and women that are definitely under Gods wrath, these would be the vessels of wrath, who are destined for wrath Rom 9:22

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Now by nature the Chosen of God when unbelievers do visibly appear as vessels of wrath fitted for destruction simply because they sinners naturally like they are.

And being sinners as the vessels of wrath are, they are also most deserving of Gods wrath and destruction as all men are by nature.

And also, by nature the Chosen are wrathful children towards God as other sinners are, meaning their disposition towards the True God is one of wrathful, enmity against Him as in Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Col 1:21

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

The word for enemies here in the above is the word echthros :

From a primary echtho (to hate); hateful (passively, odious, or actively, hostile)

hated, odious, hateful
hostile, hating, and opposing another
1. used of men as at enmity with God by their sin
  1. opposing (God) in the mind

And the word hateful means resentful, even wrathful !

The elect/chosen by nature as in common with all other men are carnal in the flesh, and heres what Paul writes about them in the flesh Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity[hatred] against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Yet with all this foul disposition we naturally have against the True God, as the Chosen of God, they're never under Gods wrath . They are never vessels of wrath God is fitting for destruction, Gods disposition towards them, even when they are enemies towards Himself, is one of Love, Mercy, and Reconciliation, and Peace through the death of Christ for them. Rom 5:8,10;Eph 2:4; 1 Jn 2:2

So believers, the Chosen in Christ are never under Gods Wrath and scripture doesnt anywhere teach that, not even Eph 2:3 !

Romans 3:23
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 5:8
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Pilgrimshope · May 5, 2021

Runningman said:

One example of what you posted with no context

Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

seems conditionless as if gift means you need do nothing but this is what is omitted which gives understanding to the single verse out of context

“What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:15-18, 20-22‬ ‭

the context changes everything you can see the final verse

“For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if I’m only willing to accept that verse I can make it mean anything but if I take it in context of what Paul’s saying it comes with understanding

“the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

This isn’t meant to be taken out of context to support a contrary idea but in context which gives it understanding .

or another example if I only allow this wuote it seems as if good works have no place with us

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

almost like trying to do good is a bad thing but the very next verse changes that understanding

“For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

When you say saved by grace it looks like this if it’s Gods grace

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Gods grace teaches repentance and righteousness and teaches us to love good works hate sin and walk in the word of God but not begrudgingly

then there’s a distorted grave that removes repentance and allows for sinners to enjoy thier sin worry free

“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.”
‭‭Jude‬ ‭1:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

just like the ot if we don’t turn to him in truth we’re going the wrong direction

brightfame52 · May 5, 2021

Runningman said:

Romans 3:23
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 5:8
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You ignored me.

By Nature Children of Wrath as others !

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