50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

That's a message to the church of Philadelphia. Not really useful to describe the future prophesied great tribulation.

For example, Revelation 2:10 was written to the church of Smyrna and it says "ye shall have tribulation ten days" but we don't use that to say the great tribulation lasts 10 days because we know the context isn't the same. Nice try tho.

Rev. 2:10
10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Yes, I noticed the craziness. It is like playing Dodge Ball in a ZERO Gravity ROOM. DUCK!

2 Peter 3:3-4 (HCSB)
3 First, be aware of this: Scoffers will come in the last days to scoff, living according to their own desires,
4 saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? Ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they have been since the beginning of creation.”

Yes, I noticed the craziness. It is like playing Dodge Ball in a ZERO Gravity ROOM. DUCK!

2 Peter 3:3-4 (HCSB)
3 First, be aware of this: Scoffers will come in the last days to scoff, living according to their own desires,
4 saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? Ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they have been since the beginning of creation.”

Nobody is scoffing at the second coming, it's going to take place immediately after the tribulation, as scripture clearly teaches

Matthew 24:29-31KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

TDW is producing the finest exegesis on Christian Chat. By far. No comparison. Quite frankly I find it thrilling. He is the scholar that I always wished that I was....

Nobody is scoffing at the second coming, it's going to take place immediately after the tribulation, as scripture clearly teaches

Matthew 24:29-31KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Absolutely correct. Then comes the millennial reign on earth, with Jesus as King reigning from His throne in Jerusalem. Completely fulfilling the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants. From the millennial temple so noted in Ezekiel 41 and beyond.

It's unreadable.

Exegesis should be clearly readable using conventional grammar and sentence structure. All of the arrows, parentheses, bold, italics, underlines, different colors, and font sizes don't follow any discernible standard.

YES, you are Scoffing at the Rapture and Pretrib. That is what it is talking about. You are a fulfillment of that Prophecy. I told you SON OF MAN, is when HE comes for HIS BRIDE, in the Clouds. Second COMING is when HE SETS FOOT on Terra Ferma, and beccomes KING OF ALL THE EARTH.

Zechariah 14:4 (NCV)
4 On that day he will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem. The Mount of Olives will split in two, forming a deep valley that runs east and west. Half the mountain will move toward the north, and half will move toward the south.

Zechariah 14:7 (NCV)
7 There will be no other day like it, and the LORD knows when it will come. There will be no day or night; even at evening it will still be light.

Zechariah 14:9 (NCV)
9 Then the LORD will be king over the whole world. At that time there will be only one LORD, and his name will be the only name.


Those Three Things will happen on that DAY as HE COMES TO MAKE WAR with the NATIONS, at the Second COMING

The RAPTURE HAPPENS EARLIER; Seven Years earlier. NOT MENTION of the SUN NOT SHINING, NOR the Moon not giving it's normal LIGHT.

A NORMAL DAY with NORMAL ACTIVITES:

Matthew 24:40-42 (NCV)
40 Two men will be in the field. One will be taken, and the other will be left.
41 Two women will be grinding grain with a mill. One will be taken, and the other will be left.
42 “So always be ready, because you don’t know the day your Lord will come.

Absolutely correct. Then comes the millennial reign on earth, with Jesus as King reigning from His throne in Jerusalem. Completely fulfilling the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants. From the millennial temple so noted in Ezekiel 41 and beyond.

Sorry, but you really are not in agreement with John. Chapters 4 & 5 are the context of the first seal.
Why not look and ask John when Jesus got the book into His hands?

Rev. 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
A search is made for a man worthy of taking the book and opening the seals. In heaven, on earth and in hell.
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
This search ended in failure and John wrote, "no man was found." WHY Jesus not found? It is before He rose from the dead.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
John seemed to know the importance of getting this book opened (It gets Satan kicked off his throne as god of this world.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
The first thing to notice here is that TIME PASSED. Jesus NOT FOUND worthy before, but this search He WAS found worthy. What did He prevail over to become worthy? He prevailed over DEATH. So verse 5 shows us the time of His resurrection.
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Here John saw Jesus ascended back into heaven and then immediately send the Holy Spirit down. TIME? Around 32 AD.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
The first thing Jesus did was get the book and begin opening the seals. WHEN? Around 32 AD.

Anyone can pull verses out of their context and make them say whatever their imagination thinks. Let's leave the first seal in its early church context and then we will know what it is.

Seal one, opened around 32 AD. It is the CHURCH with the GOSPEL.
This is a true statement. No one can find 2000 years between ANY of these verses. He got the book and immediately began opening seals. The truth is, God had been waiting nearly 4000 years to get someone qualified to open the seals. Jesus did not waste a minute, but started with the first seal immediately.


Note what John really wrote: Most people don't read it properly...

Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

It is a statement of fact. DID Jesus show John things in His future? He certainly did, many things. But notice what this verse does NOT say: It does NOT say I will shew thee ONLY things which must be hereafter. yet many people believe that is what it is saying. The point is, God started in His vision with John with a throne room WITHOUT JESUS. Why?

God wanted to show John THE BOOK, but chose to start the vision while the book was still in the hand of the FAther. Since Jesus took the book as soon as He ascended, SOMEHOW God would have to show John a vision of the past in a way that John and the readers would know it was past, not future.

So God showed John a throne room with Jesus absent, then the Holy Spirit still there, then a search for one worthy that ended in failure. Then another search that found Jesus worthy - all showing TIME and the movement of TIME. It pinpoints the time Jesus rose from the dead, then the time of His ascension and finally the time He sent the Holy Spirit down. And He took the book as soon as He arrived back in the throne room.

NO! Seal 2 is war, to represent one weapon God has allowed the devil to us to try and stop the gospel.

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

We must be consistent in our doctrine!

The 3rd seal is hunger or famine. The 4th seal is DEATH or pestilence. What did Jesus say?

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: [wars again] and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Again, we must to consistent: Jesus does not get to the end until verse 14, they jumps to the middle of the week. But before verse 14, Jesus is speaking of the church age, specifically "the end is not yet. John does not finish the church age until seal 5 for the martyrs of the church age.

I challenge you to study and show yourself approved! ;-)
Absolutely! Good point!

NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! From the 7th SEAL to the 7th vial is 2520 days. And from the 7th trumpet to the 7th vial is 1260 days. God has MARKED (His word not mine) the 70th week with 7's.

You both are sincere, but are sincerely WRONG. The Appearing in the Clouds is a Separate prior incident, about 7 years Prior to the SECOND COMING, and I CAN PROVE IT; but I doubt if you will even READ IT. Your brainwashed thoughts, are NOT TRUTH.

THIS VERSE IS ABSOLUTE TRUTH:

Matthew 25:13 (NCV)
13 “So always be ready, because you don’t know the day or the hour the Son of Man will come.


Yeshua SAID it, and YOU DOUBT IT, simply becauce YOU were taught different. That is PLAIN ENGLISH, and YOU proceed to DOUBT IT.

How many will not KNOW the Day or the Hour ? ? ?

Can't you see the Day or Hour is Known by ever combatant on the Armageddan Battle Field ? ? ?

Revelation 19:19 (NKJV)
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

They are their to try to stop JESUS CHRIST from coming back.


DON'T YOU SEE, THE ONLY WAY THEY WILL NOT will not know the at Least the DAY, is if it was Pretribulation ? ? ?

It would take at least two months to gather the world's Armies in the Valley of Megiddo and Jerusalem, and TWO MONTHS is a LONG TIME. But HIS APPEARING, the one Known AS the RAPTURE will be gathered in a flash, as quick as a lightning flash.

Matthew 24:27 (NKJV)
27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

1 Corinthians 15:51-58 (KJV)
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 (HCSB)
14 Since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, in the same way God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.
15 For we say this to you by a revelation from the Lord: We who are still alive at the Lord’s coming will certainly have no advantage over those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.



Here is the tradition Feasts of TRUMPETS, in a Massianic Christian Church

Leviticus 23:24 (NASB)
24 "Speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'In the seventh month on the first of the month you shall have a rest, a reminder by blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation.

The LAST TRUMP HAS NOTHING to do with the TRUMPET JUDGEMENTS. It is Part of the FEAST OF TRUMPETS, the very LAST TRUMP, and is traditionally held extra long, and is Called in JUDAISM the LAST TRUMP.

Here is what it SOUNDS LIKE:

FreeGrace2 said:
Maybe it hasn't occurred to you, but on a trip from heaven to earth, one has to pass through the atmosphere, where Jesus resurrects all the accompanying dead saints, and gathers up all the living believers and changes them. And THEN He continues on down to earth.

How can the "dead in Christ" be "caught up"? They CAME with Him. It's the living believers who are CAUGHT UP together with THEM (that would be Jesus Christ and the saints already in heaven).

1 Thess 4-
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

If this isn't clear enough, I don't think there is any more than one can do for you.

btw, the phrase "dead in Christ will rise first" refers to the physical bodies being raised from the dirt. Their souls came with Jesus from heaven at the Second Advent.

Nobody is scoffing at the second coming, it's going to take place immediately after the tribulation, as scripture clearly teaches

Matthew 24:29-31KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Amazing that you left out that the one needed to open the seals was the God man. Jesus was already there in heaven.
Resurrected and in heaven as the God man.

It was not that they could not find him because he wasn't there. He was there. He was manifested as a lamb. Not as a man even though he was/is a man.
It is a revelation from Ruth.
The seals are the beginning of earths reclamation. Reclaiming the earth.
Only the kinsman redeemer can claim property.
That is WHY the seal opener had to be man. A worthy man. A KINSMAN.
Boaz represents Jesus. He was second in line to reclaim Naomi's property.
The catch was ruth. Ruth had to be included.
IOW Ruth was the human end of the business deal.
Naomi and her property the other half.
The title deed in Ruth points to the scroll in the Fathers hand.

Satan's lease is up.

Time to reclaim.

Amazing that you left out that the one needed to open the seals was the God man. Jesus was already there in heaven.

It was not that they could not find him because he wasn't there. He was there. He was manifested as a lamb.

The seals are the beginning of earths reclamation. Reclaiming the earth.

sorry, double post

The Second Coming Is (The End) Not The Start Of A Millennial Kingdom on Earth, Read It Real Slow
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end,
1 Corinthians 15:21-24 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

We've been over this lesson in many past posts:

--Verse 24 says, "THEN [G1534 - eita] the end" (the word "cometh / comes" is not in the Greek text, here);

--this "THEN [G1534 - eita]" word is a "SEQUENCE" word only, with NO time-element attached (unlike another "then" word, "then [tote - G5119]" like is used in 2Th2:8a);

-- https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/15-24.htm ;

--so *this* text is not conveying "THEN *immediately* the end," but rather "THEN *sequentially* the end";

--the remainder of the context tells what must take place within that time-frame intervening ("FOR He must reign TILL...");

--and that is the EXACT "SEQUENCE" that Isaiah 24:21-22[23] shows, where the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words of that text PARALLELS the Revelation 19:19,21 / 16:14-16 / 20:5 passage and its timing, i.e. His Second Coming to the earth / Armageddon;

--then Isaiah 24:21-22[23]'s SECOND "PUNISH" word of that text clearly comes after an intervening "time-period" which is identical to the SEQUENCE issues between Rev19 & 20;

...not to mention is identical to the SEQUENCE issues in our present text, 1Cor15:24-28;

...not to mention is identical to the Daniel 7:25,27 text, where v.27 (after a specific time-period in v.25 / 2nd half of trib) says, "the greatness of the kingdom UNDER the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High" which is also told of in v.22 "and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom"... where v.22's wording corresponds precisely with Revelation 20:4a "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them"

--EACH of these passages agree regarding the SEQUENCE issues

--and in Zech14:8 it says "And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: IN SUMMER AND IN WINTER SHALL IT BE." Several verses using the phrase "IN THAT DAY" indicating "a time-period" (i.e. "an era"), rather than meaning merely "a singular 24-hr day";
...and vv.11-12 are showing a CONTRAST between those who will LIVE (and exist following all "destruction") and those who will NOT live (those who "fought against Jerusalem"--SAME AS IN the Rev19:21 text I supplied above), where those who go on to LIVE in that time-period are given the instructions found in vv.16-19 (re: keeping the feast of Tabernacles... in Jerusalem... "from year to year" i.e yearly)


This text is governed by the "WE"... (speaking ONLY of "believers" here)

...so that, this text using the phrase "the dead" is not speaking of "the dead [/unsaved / 'lost' from all time periods]"... this CONTEXT is speaking ONLY of the "WE" (the SAVED / BELIEVERS)



As in the aforementioned paragraph I put, this text is governed by the "WE" and also (here ^ ) by the word "THIS"... "THIS corruptible" and "THIS mortal" (speaking only of: "the DEAD IN Christ" [the "WE" of this wider context]; and the "we which are ALIVE and remain" [also the "WE" of this wider context]--meaning, NONE of the "UNsaved / UNbelievers / LOST" are being spoken of in THIS CONTEXT)

That day will not come unless there first come the rebellion and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
who opposes everything god so called or is worshipped as god
taking his seat in the temple declaring that he is himself God
whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth.

He will oppose the church, he will oppose all religion ... that bro is the great persecution ... the great tribulation.