The key to the Pre-Trib Rapture:

Anyone reading the comments here would think, based upon what has been said recently, we are forgetting that our adversaries are the teachings of antagonistic secular humanists, new age pantheists, and radical Muslims and of course Satan himself.

That is a shame, for we are forgetting our prime directive given to us by Jesus and repeated by the Apostles Paul, John, and Peter:
to love one another as Christ loves His Church.

1 John 3:23............
“And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.”

But this is plenty of vitriol within the family and accusations flying back and forth. Passion and zeal have intermingled with dogmatic partisanship and the debate over the rapture flourishes hotter now than ever.

I for one am a pre-tribulation Rapture believer. I believe that the Bible teaches clearlyand abundently that there is a coming resurrection. The debate then is WHEN not if. Is it before the Tribulation. Middle or at the End.

There is no escaping the fact that we are responsible for what we choose to believe. By studying for ourselves and asking for enlightenment from the Holy Spirit, we should form our beliefs and be able to give a reason for the hope that is within us.

1 Peter 3:15 says.............
“But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear.”

Those who disagree with the views of others on the rapture, and do so based upon their understanding of the Word of the Lord, are neither apostates nor heretics. They are not uncaring nor unfaithful. Pre-Tribbers are not escapists; Post-Tribbers are not masochists.
To accuse those we disagree with with any of these motives constitutes a moral lapse on our part. To be angry with them, to call them ignorant or unthinking comprises a serious sin which Christ solemnly warns us against in Matthew 5:22.........
“But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca (“Good-for-nothing”) shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.”

Now the phrase.......... “name one verse that proves the Pre-Trib position is true.” , has been posted over and over on this thread.

The “arguer” assumes (wrongly I might add) that if there isn’t any single verse that clearly states the Pre-Trib position (and eschews the others), then, obviously, the doctrine of the Pre-Trib view must be wrong. In other words, any doctrine worth its salt must have at least one, clearcut verse (not passage mind you, just a verse) that says explicitly, “Jesus Christ comes for His Church before the “Tribulation Period of the Last Days” commences.

I think that everyone knows that is an absurd assumption. Allow me to post just a few Christian Doctrines that are not found in the Bible.

1. The TRINITY.
2. There are Seven Arch angels.
3. Sons of God are always human men.

Now for ONE Scripture........

Luke 21:36–
"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

Revelation 3:10–
"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth".

1 Thessalonians 5:9–
"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. "

There is as more Scriptural support to accept the Pre-tribulation Rapture in those Scriptures than there is to support the Trinity!

I did not say that Jesus was taking about His second coming, but was talking about the of the gathering of the church, which is a separate event and takes place prior to God's wrath.

The promise that the Lord made to His disciples to come and get them is in reference to the resurrection and the living church being changed and caught up. This is the blessed hopf that Paul was speaking of, the appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. This is the event that the Lord has told us to watch and be ready for. Therefore, it is not only a promise for the disciples, but the entire church. When that event takes place, the entire church/bride will be gathered in one place at the same time, with the Lord taking the entire church back to the Father's house for the reward ceremony and the wedding of the Lamb.

Jesus can go prepare a place for His followers in His Father's house any time. The death, burial, resurrection, and ascension do not need to occur for Jesus to go to heaven and create a place for people to be.

There are no words here that exclude this from happening in between death and resurrection. So the timing of when is up in the air.

According to Matthew 28:20 Jesus never really leaves even though He ascends to heaven. Being God, Jesus can do that with His Spirit. Kind of like how Jesus appeared to Saul (Paul) post-ascension.

So I don't think the verses in John 14 really mean what you say they mean.

Even though Jesus leaves and will return again He is actually still here always.

Matthew 28:20
20...lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

This is exactly correct, Kolistus!

Many expositors have mistranslated Matt.24:31 as the gathering of the church/rapture. However, when the resurrection of the dead in Christ takes place and the living are changed and caught up, angels do not gather us. We will be raised in power, i.e. the new immortal bodies having heavenly characteristics. And as you pointed out, at the second coming, the angels will be going throughout the earth and gathering both the wicked and the righteous who will have made it alive through the entire tribulation period.

No there is not a separate gathering of the church.

Any rapture verse you cite is in context of the second return of Christ and that happens only one time.

The scripture says "If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am. This is in keeping with the Jewish wedding process, where the Groom is betrothed to the bride. He then goes back to the Father's house and prepares a place for her. In the mean time, the bride was always watching and anticipating the grooms arrival.

Currently, we, the church/bride, are in the betrothal state and the groom went to prepare places for His bride, the church. When the wedding chamber is completed and according to the Father's timing, the groom will come for His bride.

You guys can believe whatever you want, but I always want the truth. And I study it and pray until God reveals it to me. All of those teachings of men are second hand and I don't want to have anything to do with them. I've contended against them all of my life.

The next event that will take place, will be the groom returning for His bride to take her back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us, His bride.

Why can't the rapture occur and then the man of sin be revealed which would indicate that that day had come. Such that the day of the Lord is marked by this first judgment, that Wicked being revealed. The saints are not looking for the Man of Sin to be revealed, we are looking for the Lord to be revealed. If we are raptured and immediately followed by the man of sin being revealed then it would be proof that the day of the Lord had begun. If someone says that the day of the Lord has begun and there is no Antichrist revealed then we can say no it hasn't but I don't think that is the same thing as saying that the rapture cannot occur before the man of sin is revealed. Otherwise we are looking for the Antichrist instead of looking for the Christ.

You have one thing correct, the false teaching of Thomas Ice is bread crumbs, and that's being nice.

The Heresy of (Thomas Ice) Dallas Theological Alumni

His False Teaching (A Falling Away/Apostasia) means a rapture of the Church to heaven

As Strongs clearly shows, (Apostasia) "defection from truth", "apostasy"

Not a rapture of the church to heaven, as Thomas Ice falsely teaches.

2 Thessalonians 2:3KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Strong’s Definitions
ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G646; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.

2 Timothy 3:7 "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of truth"

2 Peter 1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation"

As in each if these "rapture" threads, 2 Timothy 3:7 fits you pre-trib people perfectly and you are guilty of violation 2 Peter 1:20.

It is a waste of time to offer you the truth, so I will just leave you to your foolishness.

that where I am there you maybe Also.

The scripture is very clear, the coming seen is the second coming of Jesus Christ, and the gathering is the (Last Day) resurrection and Catching up of the Church, prior to the Lords fire in Judgement.

Yes the scripture clearly details this coming in verse 8 below, the Lord consumes the Man of Sin/Antichrist, and destroys him with the brightness of his second coming, simple, clear, easy to understand, if your not a Scribe.

Yes the Church present on earth, is to look for this Man Of Sin, and his revealing, just as the scripture teaches!

Let No Man Deceive You By Any Means, And That Includes (Scribes & Pharisees)

(The Second Coming Of Jesus Christ)

2 Thessalonians 2:1-8KJV
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Yes the Church will be present on earth to witness the tribulation and second coming.

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Jesus Went To Prepare A Place For His Church In The Fathers House, Its Called

(New Jerusalem)

(BEHOLD, I Make All Things New)

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

All claims of a pre-trib rapture are nothing more than the second coming, last day resurrection, only the blind believe Darby & Adulterer Scofield.

The main scripture used by supporters of the pre-trib rapture is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a Pre-Trib rapture.

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Not one word in scripture you have posted, teaches John N. Darby's or Adulterer C.I. Scofields Pre-Trib Rapture, Not A One!

And you wont find one, because a Pre-Trib rapture is a man made fairy tale,that doesn't exist.

That is another problem for the post-trib position, there is no one who can go to the millenium. As the wicked are destroyed by the Lord at His coming, and all the righteous are raptured at the second coming. Who is left?

I am always surprised that people misapprehend the point of the entire passage.

The Thessalonians were bewildered frightened and dismayed because they thought they were now GOING THROUGH the Tribulation.......CONTRARY to the earlier teachings that Paul had provided them. They are in fact "shaken" and "troubled" (NOT filled with joyful anticipation), thinking that they are in the Tribulation..........and had missed the departure a.k.a. a Rapture.

Paul then reconfirms his earlier teachings that they will NOT be going through the Tribulation.

All of the other relevant passages only support this position and never defy it.

Hey Your Catching On!

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation.

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ!

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

They Weren't Looking To Miss The Tribulation (False Claim)

They were reassured of the (Second Coming) seen in verse 8 below, and events that were to take place (Prior) to this coming, that the church present on earth, was to be eyewitnesses of, namely the revealing of the (Man Of Sin/Antichrist)

Bend, Twist, Tear, at those words of truth below.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-8KJV
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

I am lost here. Well how did "Thomas Ice" come into this? So that man is known but we are to toss him out and believe you over him simple because you disagree? Some of your facts are wrong here which are not back up by the word.

From the bottom up you.... not the word of God you said the Church will be protected , just as the hebrews were. I could just stop here. You say this and then say there is no pre-trib verse. You know there is no verse saying the Church will or has to go through the great tribulation. Playing with speculation is fun but very unwise. No need to go on here.

Caught up was talked preached about going back to 100ad. I searched found hymn writer and preacher talked about caught up happening before the great tribulation and this was between 300-400 ad. This was wow.. also on TV where the man talked about and showed this one and many other scrolls. Which proves what? Nothing other then it was talked about. This alone shows me how many truly studied search on this. Again it just means they did preach about it.

For me Jesus said He went back to make us a home..pfft just post it "In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also." So where is He? Where are these rooms? Paul didn't say "those that remain" nor "they that remain". He said "WE" which remain will be caught up".

So please don't tell others there is no verse for pre trib when you know there is no verse for mid or post trib. When you also know there is no verse saying the Church will or has to go through the great tribulation. I also wonder.. WHY is Satan not out in the open doing lying wonders now? Well he can't. As long as we are here he wont ever come out in the open. Hello Christ gave us all power all authority over the enemy. You gong to tell me the Church will be here and the Antichrist and false prophet out in the open and you me the Church have no power over him? Is it not written greater is He that is in you then he thats in the world. I give you all power over the enemy.. and nothing <----NOTHING shall by any means hurt you. Something has to be taken out of the way before the antichrist can come out in the open and do lying wonders.

So we know where Christ went and why. We know He will come back and receive us unto Him self so where He is we will be. We know voice,shout,trump will sound as Christ shows up in the air and we know dead will rise and we which remain will be caught up. We know something is holding back the lawless one and before that lawless one comes out in the open he/it that hold him back will be taken out of the way. What each one of us ADD to or TAKE way from what is written.. we did it not Him.

Oh I also can not find where I was promised tomorrow. So I in this moment watch am ready for Christ right now! I will never miss Him. Christ has never once went against you will.

So lets speak nice words of life about people that do not believe the same as us. I post this before about John Paul Jackson. Don't get stuck on the man. Never followed him but liked what he said once about CAUGHT UP. "I am post rapture BUT if Jesus comes pre? I am ready now". That man like so many others knows there is no PRE MID POST verse. Be ready NOW.. this moment is what matters. Are you ready NOW?

Oh.. not here to come back and debate.. there is nothing to debate. Thousand of years ago it would have been asked "who are you? Who knows you? How long have you been walking in what your teach preach" Then all would go pray.

I know of Thomas Ice.. never read anything of him but I know of him. His words have more weight then some unknown on the internet.. like me also..unknown

Indeed the pre-trib rapture position is very tight Scripturally. It ties up all of those loose ends.