CHRIST DIED FOR THE UNGODLY

A hyper mid dispensationalist . Do you even know what that means? its quite specific and I've not said that is what i believe. So this is quite entertaining.

I'm surprised by that fact you thought the new testament was before his death ??

I can't argue with that.

phil36 said:
I'm surprised by that fact you thought the new testament was before his death ??

It is that my friend.

Hi throughfaith, where did I say this.. you have me as saying it?

Hi throughfaith, where did I say this.. you have me as saying it?

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Begins with Jesus when ? His birth ? His first recorded words in luke 2 ? His baptism?

1¶Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

4And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

6¶For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

(Gen. 3:1–19 )
12¶Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18¶Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20¶Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 5 is an awesome chapter on which clarifies the order of salvation and the components of salvation .
Notice its the UNGODLY that Jesus died for ? It doesn't say ' the elect '.
Romans 5 also makes clear that Christs death alone is not what saves .
My contention from these verses is this .
1 )Christ died for all without exception . In context we see that Jesus really did die for ALL and ALL are the ungodly .

2) Christ's' death' did not secure anyones salvation. We need the resurrection. We are saved by his life.

3) Justification is by Faith . Faith is the prerequisite to the grace .

4) Reconciliation is not ' salvation ' when Jesus ' reconciled ' the world ,think of a bridge in which Christ has now laid so that all may cross . This is what Jesus did on the cross. This does not regenerate .This does not produce faith or give faith . This does not glorify anyone . God has made ' faith ' the access to the grace . To get on the bridge , so to speak .


5) Yes this chapter, amoung many is anti Calvinistic . But it also proves false many other denominational teaching on Lordship salvation/ conditional salvation . Romans 5 is contorted to fit systematic theology ,but if we let the verses stand as they are we would understand what they actually SAY and not what we are told they TEACH .



Let's discuss
What say you on Romans 5 ?

Yes but you need to learn to quote correctly,, a paraphrase of your own thoughts is not a quote!


The dawning of the New covenant starts with the birth of Jesus, taking on Human flesh, living that sinless life - this is part of that covenant for if he was not a spotless lamb the sacrifice would be of no avail.

The gospel is Jesus.. his life, teaching, death and resurrection .
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Ok here is a question relating to your OP


Did Jesus teach a gospel of grace, did he teach justification by faith alone

What say I? I say you're confused and I'm tired of hearing about it.





View attachment 225399

What say I? I say you're confused and I'm tired of hearing about it.





View attachment 225399

Yes but you need to learn to quote correctly,, a paraphrase of your own thoughts is not a quote!


The dawning of the New covenant starts with the birth of Jesus, taking on Human flesh, living that sinless life - this is part of that covenant for if he was not a spotless lamb the sacrifice would be of no avail.

The gospel is Jesus.. his life, teaching, death and resurrection .
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok here is a question relating to your OP


Did Jesus teach a gospel of grace, did he teach justification by faith alone

What say I? I say you're confused and I'm tired of hearing about it.





View attachment 225399

sin = Death
All have sinned and need salvation from every sin
Jesus paid it all and by faith we can accept that gift of His life.

Through Love God will not accept one sin into His kingdom because it = death and God is Just.
Through Love God offers us the grace and mercy to take away our sin. = Justification.
Through Love we are given the choice as to what we will do with the known sins in our lives.

Jesus died for all and His blood is freely given to those that by faith accept it. Justice and mercy meet at the cross.

All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

Paul states things wonderfully here.. We are sinners by nature...our very nature we are born with before we even sinned.


5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me