Are Christians more accepting of charlatans then we should be?

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LostSoul

LostSoul

Member
#1
Jan 28, 2021
67
20
8
#1
Hello everybody,

I hope you are all well.
I have been lurking on this forum for some time and decided to join - thanks to the administrators for approving my profile very quickly.

The thing I'd like to get people's views on is whether we as a broad church are more accepting of charlatans and narcissists than we should be.

I had a bad experience at a so called church (Hillsong) about 2 years ago and haven't returned since.
I left because I didn't like how people were manipulated into tithing (not a requirement for modern day Christians) and side-lined if they didn't give in to the manipulation.
I gave to the Church myself, but eventually realised I was doing so under compulsion which is when my eyes were opened to the manipulation.

I also didn't like how closed the 'books' (financial records) were.
The pastor always said the the 'books' were open and free for all to examine, but when a couple of people from the church asked to look at the 'books', they were simply forwarded to the statutory accounts on a government website.
The statutory accounts provide a summary, not a full breakdown.

The pastor and his wife were also living the life of Riley: new car paid for by church, utility bills paid for by church, travel expenses paid for by church, near £40k a year wage (which doesn't include his wife's wage!).
I even witnessed the pastor say during a sermon that he is "God's gift to the church"! Massive ego.

I came to the conclusion that the church was being run like a business.
I did some research on Hillsong and realised that Hillsong is definitely money orientated.

Any thoughts?

Sorry in advance if this divides opinion.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#2
Jun 30, 2015
25,404
13,746
113
#2
Welcome, LostSoul...
To your thread title question: Yes. Christians are generally far too tolerant of error and far too unwilling to call out charlatans.

To your personal experience with Hillsong: forgive them, and ask God to use those experiences for good in your life according to Romans 8:28. Good that you saw through the manipulation and were willing to search the Scriptures for yourself. I had a very similar experience with a church many years ago.
 
B

Blackpowderduelist

Guest
#3
#3
Yes.
Just watch vtn
 
LostSoul

LostSoul

Member
#4
Jan 28, 2021
67
20
8
#4
Dino246 said:
Welcome, LostSoul...
To your thread title question: Yes. Christians are generally far too tolerant of error and far too unwilling to call out charlatans.

To your personal experience with Hillsong: forgive them, and ask God to use those experiences for good in your life according to Romans 8:28. Good that you saw through the manipulation and were willing to search the Scriptures for yourself. I had a very similar experience with a church many years ago.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your reply Dino.

I found in the Church that few people were willing to search the scriptures for themselves, instead all too willing to basically allow others to think for them.
This meant they they bought into the cherry-picked verses that had subsequently been twisted to serve an agenda, which almost invariably involved giving somebody else your money.

I have no found a single verse in the new testament that compels modern Christians to tithe. Tithing is in fact an old testament requirement.
And no, Malachi does not say that modern Christians must tithe!
And no, you're not robbing God if you don't tithe!
 
inukubo

inukubo

Active member
#5
Jun 27, 2019
169
166
43
45
#5
Yes, unfortunately Christians are all too naive when it comes to being doormats for charlatans and narcissists. Even to the point of giving big name "Christian celebs" second and third chances to abuse their positions after massive public scandals. I am glad you got wise and managed to escape your situation, though. I wish all Christians would be as in tune with the Word and thinking critically as you seem to be!
 
AgapeShellArt

AgapeShellArt

Active member
#6
Nov 21, 2018
156
128
43
#6
I pray that one day soon you will think yourself as "Found soul" instead of a lost one.

We are all travelers journeying home towards God.

Too many people don't really believe in God or what He says. Those people may disguise themselves as wolves in sheep's clothing.

The Bible tells us to be wary of them.

I am glad you left before they devoured you. However they have wounded you and you sound as if you are still bleeding. Hopefully God will lead you to a true church with loving brethren.

As for the question of your thread, we aren't accepting of charlatan. Just sometimes we are ignorant and wick people take advantage of that.

I suggest learning what God's word really says, praying daily and learn to discern good and evil.

That way we can see the true children of God and the fakers.


However even if they are fakers we are still called to love them...loving them doesn't mean giving them money or letting them walk all over you. It means praying that they turn from their wicked ways and asking God how you can help them stop living in lies.

Hope you have a blessed night
 
AgapeShellArt

AgapeShellArt

Active member
#7
Nov 21, 2018
156
128
43
#7
LostSoul said:
Thanks for your reply Dino.

I found in the Church that few people were willing to search the scriptures for themselves, instead all too willing to basically allow others to think for them.
This meant they they bought into the cherry-picked verses that had subsequently been twisted to serve an agenda, which almost invariably involved giving somebody else your money.

I have no found a single verse in the new testament that compels modern Christians to tithe. Tithing is in fact an old testament requirement.
And no, Malachi does not say that modern Christians must tithe!
And no, you're not robbing God if you don't tithe!
Click to expand...
I have always said that God doesn't ask for 10% but 100% in the New testament. Not to the earthly church but the heavenly one.

God wants to give our whole life to Him and recognize that we are stewards to our earthly things, not owners. We are to give as God moves us and keep in trust what God has entrusted us with.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#8
Jun 30, 2015
25,404
13,746
113
#8
LostSoul said:
I have no found a single verse in the new testament that compels modern Christians to tithe. Tithing is in fact an old testament requirement.
And no, Malachi does not say that modern Christians must tithe!
And no, you're not robbing God if you don't tithe!
Click to expand...
I agree completely. :)
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#9
Jun 30, 2015
25,404
13,746
113
#9
AgapeShellArt said:
I have always said that God doesn't ask for 10% but 100% in the New testament. Not to the earthly church but the heavenly one.

God wants to give our whole life to Him and recognize that we are stewards to our earthly things, not owners. We are to give as God moves us and keep in trust what God has entrusted us with.
Click to expand...
I have heard this too, but sadly it usually is a preface to something like, "So 10% really is a small portion to give to your local church." I have heard many unbiblical arguments for tithing, and no soundly biblical arguments.
 
AgapeShellArt

AgapeShellArt

Active member
#10
Nov 21, 2018
156
128
43
#10
Dino246 said:
I have heard this too, but sadly it usually is a preface to something like, "So 10% really is a small portion to give to your local church." I have heard many unbiblical arguments for tithing, and no soundly biblical arguments.
Click to expand...
Wolves wanna eat sheep. Been happening since Biblical times.
 
Blain

Blain

The Word Weaver
#11
Aug 28, 2012
19,212
2,547
113
#11
LostSoul said:
Hello everybody,

I hope you are all well.
I have been lurking on this forum for some time and decided to join - thanks to the administrators for approving my profile very quickly.

The thing I'd like to get people's views on is whether we as a broad church are more accepting of charlatans and narcissists than we should be.

I had a bad experience at a so called church (Hillsong) about 2 years ago and haven't returned since.
I left because I didn't like how people were manipulated into tithing (not a requirement for modern day Christians) and side-lined if they didn't give in to the manipulation.
I gave to the Church myself, but eventually realised I was doing so under compulsion which is when my eyes were opened to the manipulation.

I also didn't like how closed the 'books' (financial records) were.
The pastor always said the the 'books' were open and free for all to examine, but when a couple of people from the church asked to look at the 'books', they were simply forwarded to the statutory accounts on a government website.
The statutory accounts provide a summary, not a full breakdown.

The pastor and his wife were also living the life of Riley: new car paid for by church, utility bills paid for by church, travel expenses paid for by church, near £40k a year wage (which doesn't include his wife's wage!).
I even witnessed the pastor say during a sermon that he is "God's gift to the church"! Massive ego.

I came to the conclusion that the church was being run like a business.
I did some research on Hillsong and realised that Hillsong is definitely money orientated.

Any thoughts?

Sorry in advance if this divides opinion.
Click to expand...
Welcome to cc:D yes I think Christians can in fact be to tolerate about these things or rather they don't seem to see corruption and ungodliness in front of their eyes
I also had a several bad experiences in church one in particular I tried a new church and walked in with my pokemon shirt and black jeans I got glares and people whispered wehn I walked by in the sermon the pastor was preaching on sin it was for lack of better words a look at how much you sin kind of sermon the kind that beats you down

I looked around and their were small children who had to listen to this men and women of all ages and none of them seemed to have any life in them it was like it just got sucked out not a single word of hope was in the sermon and I saw the damage it was doing to these people and stood up to confront the pastor of course he tried to ignore and silent me but I wouldn't back down
I was furious and told him how he as a leader in a position of authority is to help lead God's church but he also will be all the more accountable to the words he places in their hearts I told him how teaching on sin if done in the right waay can bring growth and fruits in people but all he was doing was placing heavy guilt and shame on them of course he said it was the conviction of the holy spirit and I commented that conviction of the holy spirit brings growth repentence and life what I saw in these people was fear and anything but the spirit of God.

I was told by him to leave his church and I said unless I am mistaken this is God's house not yours I left but I worry to this day what kind of damage this man has done
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#13
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#13
Jesus is the head of the church, not the pastor of a certain denomination. If you tithe, it isn't tithing in the name of a certain denomination, it is tithing in the name of the Lord. It isn't the money you give to a denomination that is the only money counted in a tithe, it is also money given to help the helpless.

We are all members of the true church, we all need to do all we can to bring Jesus into the earthly church.
 
LostSoul

LostSoul

Member
#14
Jan 28, 2021
67
20
8
#14
I do feel that Christians are more tolerant of narcissists and charlatans than they should be.
I don't know why though!

Why is it that some Christians allow themselves to be milked in the name of "keeping the peace".
Stuff that, I'd rather speak up.
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#15
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#15
LostSoul said:
I do feel that Christians are more tolerant of narcissists and charlatans than they should be.
I don't know why though!

Why is it that some Christians allow themselves to be milked in the name of "keeping the peace".
Stuff that, I'd rather speak up.
Click to expand...
I understand what you are saying. I do not know why anyone would willingly be milked although keeping the peace is a good goal.

Christians give as unto the Lord. Give from a heart that loves to give. Now if those who receive the gift in the name of the Lord misuse it then woe unto them for they will answer to Christ.

To be a good steward of all God has given us we must prayerfully and carefully consider how we administer the money God gives us.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
K

KingdomBrat

Banned
#16
Oct 19, 2020
723
161
43
#16
LostSoul said:
I do feel that Christians are more tolerant of narcissists and charlatans than they should be.
I don't know why though!

Why is it that some Christians allow themselves to be milked in the name of "keeping the peace".
Stuff that, I'd rather speak up.
Click to expand...
Every day people, Believers or not, with no Discernment welcome in the questionable without perceiving what they're entirely looking at.

As far as narcissist go, especially covert narcissist, people whose lives are built on imitating the reactions and actions of others blend in well because they're not assertive. They don't want to lead so many times aren't noticed for being what they are. They're in search for the [enabler] . They want to be hidden.
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#17
May 23, 2012
13,006
4,313
113
#17
LostSoul said:
Hello everybody,

I hope you are all well.
I have been lurking on this forum for some time and decided to join - thanks to the administrators for approving my profile very quickly.

The thing I'd like to get people's views on is whether we as a broad church are more accepting of charlatans and narcissists than we should be.

I had a bad experience at a so called church (Hillsong) about 2 years ago and haven't returned since.
I left because I didn't like how people were manipulated into tithing (not a requirement for modern day Christians) and side-lined if they didn't give in to the manipulation.
I gave to the Church myself, but eventually realised I was doing so under compulsion which is when my eyes were opened to the manipulation.

I also didn't like how closed the 'books' (financial records) were.
The pastor always said the the 'books' were open and free for all to examine, but when a couple of people from the church asked to look at the 'books', they were simply forwarded to the statutory accounts on a government website.
The statutory accounts provide a summary, not a full breakdown.

The pastor and his wife were also living the life of Riley: new car paid for by church, utility bills paid for by church, travel expenses paid for by church, near £40k a year wage (which doesn't include his wife's wage!).
I even witnessed the pastor say during a sermon that he is "God's gift to the church"! Massive ego.

I came to the conclusion that the church was being run like a business.
I did some research on Hillsong and realised that Hillsong is definitely money orientated.

Any thoughts?

Sorry in advance if this divides opinion.
Click to expand...

I believe giving is biblical and God honors tithing. However, each local fellowship should be transparent. I can see our church's financial records anytime. Our Pastor makes a modest and blow ave. income here in the state of CA. under 40k a year. Hillsong is about worship music and grew very fast. Anything that reaches so many people in such a short time will have issues many in fact:

people who are stealing, wanting to be paid more to do what they have done in the past for nothing, the devil sends wolves in sheep clothing, corruption, greed all these things are not removed just because one is successful.

Over success has caused many men of God to take their eyes off God and on themselves.
 
shittim

shittim

Senior Member
#18
Dec 16, 2016
13,759
7,756
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#18
True for all of us, I heard a phrase once- "them that the gods wish to destroy they first make rich"
 
R

Ruby123

Guest
#19
#19
A lady in my zoom group meeting went to Hillsong for the first time not too long ago. She said from the moment she walked in to the time she left she felt constantly hounded for money. She said she would never go back.
They have nice music but it seems like it is more of a concert, an entertainment, whether it is or not, only God knows. Most mega churches are run like a business. Quite disappointing. Give me a small church or homegroup that actually cares anytime over a mega church.
 
G

goanna

New member
#20
Jan 28, 2021
20
7
3
#20
Let's just say I'm not a big fan of paid preachers.

To answer the OP question, I'd say that since "Faith believes all things", then perhaps if whatever is said appears to be positive and uplifting and you believe it and it turns out to be a lie, that's not on you, but them. It no more invalidates your faith than it invalidates the love you had for a person who abandoned you. Your love was real, and theirs was fake.
 
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