Are 'pastors' Biblical? (Modern as opposed to Biblical pastors)

- The Bible does not teach the 'Sunday sermon' tradition. Nor does it teach that only one person my give a long address in church.

I am not asking the question about the role described by the word 'pastors' in Scripture, in Ephesians 4:11. My question is about the extent to which the modern concept of 'pastor' we see in the western world with his duties and responsibilities is actually taught in scripture.

Let us consider the actual leadership structure of the early church. Before the ascension, Jesus appointed 12 and designated them apostles (sent ones) sending them out with instructions to preach, heal, and do miracles. After the ascension, the apostles preached and were leaders in the church, which met and continued in the apostles doctrine. The collected money and fed widows. After some time, they asked the congregation to choose men full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom to handle the feeding of widows, and laid hands on these men choses to 'serve.' Some people think these may have been deacons (servants) of the church. Christians were scattered through persecution, forming new congregations in their new locations. By the time we get to chapter 11, there were elders in the Jerusalem church who received funds sent from Christians from out of town.

Then the Spirit spoke to saints in Antioch to separate Barnabas and Saul to the work to which He had called them, and they were _sent_ out by the Spirit. Acts 14:4 and 14 calls them 'apostles.' These apostles traveled to Crete and back to the mainland of Asia Minor. They would preach in various cities, mainly in the synagogues, and new congregations of believers would form. They left the churches without appointed ordained leaders for a time as they preached elsewhere, then returned and pointed 'elders in every church.'

In Titus 1, we read that Paul instructed Titus to appoint 'elders in every city.' There is a list of qualifications.

Acts 20:28 calls the elders of the church in Ephesus, calls them bishops/overseers, and tells them to pastor the church of God (look up the word translated 'feed' or 'tend' and compare to the word translated 'pastor' or 'shepherd') In I Peter 5:2, Peter tells the elders to oversee and pastor the flock of God. In Philippians, Paul salutes plural bishops in the city.

Some observations about the elders Paul and Barnabas appointed in Acts 14 and instructions about elders/bishops I Timothy 3, and Titus 1..

- They appointed 'elders' not 'youngers.' The word translated 'elders' can be translated as 'older men' or 'older ones.'
- They ordained elders from among the very same congregation of which they were a part before their appointment. They did not bring in a Bible college graduate from out of town.
- There was more than one elder in a given church. (And the church as treated as one congregation per city.)
- A seminary degree was not a qualification listed.
- Elders had to meet certain criteria related to family life and living a godly lifestyle.

The New Testament never says it is the job of one elder to preside over the church, the assembly of believers. Nowhere are they instructed to preach one long Sunday sermon. They are to be 'apt to teach,' but scripture does not say they are the only teachers in a church. How would one know they are 'apt to teach' if they are not allowed to teach before they are ordained? I Corinthians 14:26 indicates that 'every one of you'... within certain parameters described in the passage, could speak or sing in church, sharing a psalm, teaching, revelation, tongue, or interpretation. This, one, long passage about what to do in church meetings does not even mention the role of elders, bishops, or pastors. It does specifically gift prophets permission to speak in church, and 'ye...all'. Watchman Nee's observation on this is that when elders speak in church, they are functioning as teachers or prophets (I might add exhortation to the list.)

There is no scripture to support the idea of one man called 'the pastor' over a group of elders. Where did this idea come from? First of all, in the 200's, it became the custom to have one elder take the title of 'bishop' and be over the rest. But scripture calls all the elders in a city 'bishops.' During the Reformation, the Presbyterians created the division where 'pastor' was one church office over the elders. This happened by imitating the Geneva city government. Geneva tried to be a theocracy. They had their 'pastors' which they recognized as Biblical elders, but also they had city councilmen they also called 'elders', who were not considered elders of the church. John Knox was a big fan of Geneva and John Calvin. The Scottish Presbyterians imitated the Geneva city model and turned it into a national church system. They originally used verses about 'elders' to apply to their pastors, and used the verse that mentions 'governments' in I Corinthians 12 to refer to their elders. But over time, these ideas got confused. So they created the non-pastoral elder. And many churches have a 'pastor' over a committee of largely non-pastoral board elders.

- The Bible never gives pastors or elders any authority to declare people married. In the Bible, fathers gave their daughters in marriages.
- The Bible never says anything about pastors or elders burying people.
- The Bible does not teach the 'Sunday sermon' tradition. Nor does it teach that only one person my give a long address in church.

pastors have quite a different role from teachers actually. I wouldnt mix them up, though people like to put them in the same category, God has callings for both in his church.
Peter was told by Jesus to feed my sheep and to feed my lambs. He didnt tell Peter to instruct the sheep to obey him as if they were being wayward goats. It was more important that the sheep be fed.

I am not asking the question about the role described by the word 'pastors' in Scripture, in Ephesians 4:11. My question is about the extent to which the modern concept of 'pastor' we see in the western world with his duties and responsibilities is actually taught in scripture.

Let us consider the actual leadership structure of the early church. Before the ascension, Jesus appointed 12 and designated them apostles (sent ones) sending them out with instructions to preach, heal, and do miracles. After the ascension, the apostles preached and were leaders in the church, which met and continued in the apostles doctrine. The collected money and fed widows. After some time, they asked the congregation to choose men full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom to handle the feeding of widows, and laid hands on these men choses to 'serve.' Some people think these may have been deacons (servants) of the church. Christians were scattered through persecution, forming new congregations in their new locations. By the time we get to chapter 11, there were elders in the Jerusalem church who received funds sent from Christians from out of town.

Then the Spirit spoke to saints in Antioch to separate Barnabas and Saul to the work to which He had called them, and they were _sent_ out by the Spirit. Acts 14:4 and 14 calls them 'apostles.' These apostles traveled to Crete and back to the mainland of Asia Minor. They would preach in various cities, mainly in the synagogues, and new congregations of believers would form. They left the churches without appointed ordained leaders for a time as they preached elsewhere, then returned and pointed 'elders in every church.'

In Titus 1, we read that Paul instructed Titus to appoint 'elders in every city.' There is a list of qualifications.

Acts 20:28 calls the elders of the church in Ephesus, calls them bishops/overseers, and tells them to pastor the church of God (look up the word translated 'feed' or 'tend' and compare to the word translated 'pastor' or 'shepherd') In I Peter 5:2, Peter tells the elders to oversee and pastor the flock of God. In Philippians, Paul salutes plural bishops in the city.

Some observations about the elders Paul and Barnabas appointed in Acts 14 and instructions about elders/bishops I Timothy 3, and Titus 1..

- They appointed 'elders' not 'youngers.' The word translated 'elders' can be translated as 'older men' or 'older ones.'
- They ordained elders from among the very same congregation of which they were a part before their appointment. They did not bring in a Bible college graduate from out of town.
- There was more than one elder in a given church. (And the church as treated as one congregation per city.)
- A seminary degree was not a qualification listed.
- Elders had to meet certain criteria related to family life and living a godly lifestyle.

The New Testament never says it is the job of one elder to preside over the church, the assembly of believers. Nowhere are they instructed to preach one long Sunday sermon. They are to be 'apt to teach,' but scripture does not say they are the only teachers in a church. How would one know they are 'apt to teach' if they are not allowed to teach before they are ordained? I Corinthians 14:26 indicates that 'every one of you'... within certain parameters described in the passage, could speak or sing in church, sharing a psalm, teaching, revelation, tongue, or interpretation. This, one, long passage about what to do in church meetings does not even mention the role of elders, bishops, or pastors. It does specifically gift prophets permission to speak in church, and 'ye...all'. Watchman Nee's observation on this is that when elders speak in church, they are functioning as teachers or prophets (I might add exhortation to the list.)

There is no scripture to support the idea of one man called 'the pastor' over a group of elders. Where did this idea come from? First of all, in the 200's, it became the custom to have one elder take the title of 'bishop' and be over the rest. But scripture calls all the elders in a city 'bishops.' During the Reformation, the Presbyterians created the division where 'pastor' was one church office over the elders. This happened by imitating the Geneva city government. Geneva tried to be a theocracy. They had their 'pastors' which they recognized as Biblical elders, but also they had city councilmen they also called 'elders', who were not considered elders of the church. John Knox was a big fan of Geneva and John Calvin. The Scottish Presbyterians imitated the Geneva city model and turned it into a national church system. They originally used verses about 'elders' to apply to their pastors, and used the verse that mentions 'governments' in I Corinthians 12 to refer to their elders. But over time, these ideas got confused. So they created the non-pastoral elder. And many churches have a 'pastor' over a committee of largely non-pastoral board elders.

- The Bible never gives pastors or elders any authority to declare people married. In the Bible, fathers gave their daughters in marriages.
- The Bible never says anything about pastors or elders burying people.
- The Bible does not teach the 'Sunday sermon' tradition. Nor does it teach that only one person my give a long address in church.

According to Eph 4:11 the pastor and teacher roles are combined. A pastor must be apt to teach.

Peter was instructed to feed the lambs so they would obey the word of God not Peter. Focus.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

mmm but he was still told to feed the sheep and lambs. You got to focus on what Jesus is actually telling Peter to do, not just assume things and then go back and assume well its so they can be taught and the roles are all combined in one person.

Anybody who teaches knows that people don't learn as well if they are starving. People also don't work if they don't have enough to eat. Nobody is going to work or even obey if they can't eat or don't have enough to eat.

Now go back to the passage and read it. Did Jesus say Peter you got to do this because the sheep need to obey you? Or even the word of God? NOPE.
What did he say? Jesus first asked Peter to do this because he asked Peter 'do you love me more than these?'
He asked Peter if he loved him three times.

See, Jesus was asking about love, not obedience. He was saying in essence, Do You really love me? Show it by feeding my sheep.

Is it about obedience? Is it even about teaching? Well not really. It's about love. Looking after the sheep.

Chapter 21:15

I just wanted to make that distinction, because there are many teachers and many pastors and both can work together but to say its all on one person is a misnomer. In most ministries it's actually not just one person teaching and pastoring everybody.

Peter said: "Desire the sincere milk of the word that you may grow thereby" which leads me to believe he understood Jesus as telling him to feed the sheep with the Word of God.

Many things we have and do today are not mentioned in the bible, it doesn't mean it's wrong because it's not mentioned in the bible. The fact it isn't mentioned in the bible certainly means it is not wrong as those things God considers wrong for us to do are all mentioned in the bible.

On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people
and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight. Acts 20:7

I did read your whole post You make some interesting observations

My question is about the extent to which the modern concept of 'pastor' we see in the western world with his duties and responsibilities is actually taught in scripture.

Though he doesn't mention 'false pastors'. I'm supposing it's because love and good deeds can't be feigned with fancy words.

Paul was also an 'apostle', not a local, settled elder charged with overseeing the flock... during a time when the apostolic message had not been written down in scripture. And the word translated 'preached' or 'taught' there is the word from which we get dialogue and does not preclude teaching by means of discussion.

Neither did He (God) stipulate that without a degree of some kind, men could not function in this capacity. On the contrary, the Lord Jesus Christ expressly forbade the apostles to take any kind of clerical titles, and that would apply through the ages.