Are 'pastors' Biblical? (Modern as opposed to Biblical pastors)

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presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,165
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#1
I am not asking the question about the role described by the word 'pastors' in Scripture, in Ephesians 4:11. My question is about the extent to which the modern concept of 'pastor' we see in the western world with his duties and responsibilities is actually taught in scripture.

Let us consider the actual leadership structure of the early church. Before the ascension, Jesus appointed 12 and designated them apostles (sent ones) sending them out with instructions to preach, heal, and do miracles. After the ascension, the apostles preached and were leaders in the church, which met and continued in the apostles doctrine. The collected money and fed widows. After some time, they asked the congregation to choose men full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom to handle the feeding of widows, and laid hands on these men choses to 'serve.' Some people think these may have been deacons (servants) of the church. Christians were scattered through persecution, forming new congregations in their new locations. By the time we get to chapter 11, there were elders in the Jerusalem church who received funds sent from Christians from out of town.

Then the Spirit spoke to saints in Antioch to separate Barnabas and Saul to the work to which He had called them, and they were _sent_ out by the Spirit. Acts 14:4 and 14 calls them 'apostles.' These apostles traveled to Crete and back to the mainland of Asia Minor. They would preach in various cities, mainly in the synagogues, and new congregations of believers would form. They left the churches without appointed ordained leaders for a time as they preached elsewhere, then returned and pointed 'elders in every church.'

In Titus 1, we read that Paul instructed Titus to appoint 'elders in every city.' There is a list of qualifications.

Acts 20:28 calls the elders of the church in Ephesus, calls them bishops/overseers, and tells them to pastor the church of God (look up the word translated 'feed' or 'tend' and compare to the word translated 'pastor' or 'shepherd') In I Peter 5:2, Peter tells the elders to oversee and pastor the flock of God. In Philippians, Paul salutes plural bishops in the city.

Some observations about the elders Paul and Barnabas appointed in Acts 14 and instructions about elders/bishops I Timothy 3, and Titus 1..

- They appointed 'elders' not 'youngers.' The word translated 'elders' can be translated as 'older men' or 'older ones.'
- They ordained elders from among the very same congregation of which they were a part before their appointment. They did not bring in a Bible college graduate from out of town.
- There was more than one elder in a given church. (And the church as treated as one congregation per city.)
- A seminary degree was not a qualification listed.
- Elders had to meet certain criteria related to family life and living a godly lifestyle.

The New Testament never says it is the job of one elder to preside over the church, the assembly of believers. Nowhere are they instructed to preach one long Sunday sermon. They are to be 'apt to teach,' but scripture does not say they are the only teachers in a church. How would one know they are 'apt to teach' if they are not allowed to teach before they are ordained? I Corinthians 14:26 indicates that 'every one of you'... within certain parameters described in the passage, could speak or sing in church, sharing a psalm, teaching, revelation, tongue, or interpretation. This, one, long passage about what to do in church meetings does not even mention the role of elders, bishops, or pastors. It does specifically gift prophets permission to speak in church, and 'ye...all'. Watchman Nee's observation on this is that when elders speak in church, they are functioning as teachers or prophets (I might add exhortation to the list.)

There is no scripture to support the idea of one man called 'the pastor' over a group of elders. Where did this idea come from? First of all, in the 200's, it became the custom to have one elder take the title of 'bishop' and be over the rest. But scripture calls all the elders in a city 'bishops.' During the Reformation, the Presbyterians created the division where 'pastor' was one church office over the elders. This happened by imitating the Geneva city government. Geneva tried to be a theocracy. They had their 'pastors' which they recognized as Biblical elders, but also they had city councilmen they also called 'elders', who were not considered elders of the church. John Knox was a big fan of Geneva and John Calvin. The Scottish Presbyterians imitated the Geneva city model and turned it into a national church system. They originally used verses about 'elders' to apply to their pastors, and used the verse that mentions 'governments' in I Corinthians 12 to refer to their elders. But over time, these ideas got confused. So they created the non-pastoral elder. And many churches have a 'pastor' over a committee of largely non-pastoral board elders.

- The Bible never gives pastors or elders any authority to declare people married. In the Bible, fathers gave their daughters in marriages.
- The Bible never says anything about pastors or elders burying people.
- The Bible does not teach the 'Sunday sermon' tradition. Nor does it teach that only one person my give a long address in church.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,191
30,326
113
#2
- The Bible does not teach the 'Sunday sermon' tradition. Nor does it teach that only one person my give a long address in church.
On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people
and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.
Acts 20:7

I did read your whole post :) You make some interesting observations :D
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
7,188
113
#3
modern day ones arent they are more like frontman CEOs of church businesses.
anyone who wants to be a pastor these days is totally kidding themselves its a vocation anymore. You see them as jobs advertised in church newspapers!

That would be like advertising for a new Dad and have Mr Wolf come in and clean the family out.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
7,188
113
#4
The other thing about pastors is a certain man made it an interesting job opportunity in a book called 'The purpose driven life'. In this book, he reccomended pastors go to wealthy areas cos thats where people could tithe more, and then wouldnt need a second job. Ugh.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#5
I am not asking the question about the role described by the word 'pastors' in Scripture, in Ephesians 4:11. My question is about the extent to which the modern concept of 'pastor' we see in the western world with his duties and responsibilities is actually taught in scripture.

Let us consider the actual leadership structure of the early church. Before the ascension, Jesus appointed 12 and designated them apostles (sent ones) sending them out with instructions to preach, heal, and do miracles. After the ascension, the apostles preached and were leaders in the church, which met and continued in the apostles doctrine. The collected money and fed widows. After some time, they asked the congregation to choose men full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom to handle the feeding of widows, and laid hands on these men choses to 'serve.' Some people think these may have been deacons (servants) of the church. Christians were scattered through persecution, forming new congregations in their new locations. By the time we get to chapter 11, there were elders in the Jerusalem church who received funds sent from Christians from out of town.

Then the Spirit spoke to saints in Antioch to separate Barnabas and Saul to the work to which He had called them, and they were _sent_ out by the Spirit. Acts 14:4 and 14 calls them 'apostles.' These apostles traveled to Crete and back to the mainland of Asia Minor. They would preach in various cities, mainly in the synagogues, and new congregations of believers would form. They left the churches without appointed ordained leaders for a time as they preached elsewhere, then returned and pointed 'elders in every church.'

In Titus 1, we read that Paul instructed Titus to appoint 'elders in every city.' There is a list of qualifications.

Acts 20:28 calls the elders of the church in Ephesus, calls them bishops/overseers, and tells them to pastor the church of God (look up the word translated 'feed' or 'tend' and compare to the word translated 'pastor' or 'shepherd') In I Peter 5:2, Peter tells the elders to oversee and pastor the flock of God. In Philippians, Paul salutes plural bishops in the city.

Some observations about the elders Paul and Barnabas appointed in Acts 14 and instructions about elders/bishops I Timothy 3, and Titus 1..

- They appointed 'elders' not 'youngers.' The word translated 'elders' can be translated as 'older men' or 'older ones.'
- They ordained elders from among the very same congregation of which they were a part before their appointment. They did not bring in a Bible college graduate from out of town.
- There was more than one elder in a given church. (And the church as treated as one congregation per city.)
- A seminary degree was not a qualification listed.
- Elders had to meet certain criteria related to family life and living a godly lifestyle.

The New Testament never says it is the job of one elder to preside over the church, the assembly of believers. Nowhere are they instructed to preach one long Sunday sermon. They are to be 'apt to teach,' but scripture does not say they are the only teachers in a church. How would one know they are 'apt to teach' if they are not allowed to teach before they are ordained? I Corinthians 14:26 indicates that 'every one of you'... within certain parameters described in the passage, could speak or sing in church, sharing a psalm, teaching, revelation, tongue, or interpretation. This, one, long passage about what to do in church meetings does not even mention the role of elders, bishops, or pastors. It does specifically gift prophets permission to speak in church, and 'ye...all'. Watchman Nee's observation on this is that when elders speak in church, they are functioning as teachers or prophets (I might add exhortation to the list.)

There is no scripture to support the idea of one man called 'the pastor' over a group of elders. Where did this idea come from? First of all, in the 200's, it became the custom to have one elder take the title of 'bishop' and be over the rest. But scripture calls all the elders in a city 'bishops.' During the Reformation, the Presbyterians created the division where 'pastor' was one church office over the elders. This happened by imitating the Geneva city government. Geneva tried to be a theocracy. They had their 'pastors' which they recognized as Biblical elders, but also they had city councilmen they also called 'elders', who were not considered elders of the church. John Knox was a big fan of Geneva and John Calvin. The Scottish Presbyterians imitated the Geneva city model and turned it into a national church system. They originally used verses about 'elders' to apply to their pastors, and used the verse that mentions 'governments' in I Corinthians 12 to refer to their elders. But over time, these ideas got confused. So they created the non-pastoral elder. And many churches have a 'pastor' over a committee of largely non-pastoral board elders.

- The Bible never gives pastors or elders any authority to declare people married. In the Bible, fathers gave their daughters in marriages.
- The Bible never says anything about pastors or elders burying people.
- The Bible does not teach the 'Sunday sermon' tradition. Nor does it teach that only one person my give a long address in church.
I find this a bit self serving. God does gift pastor/teachers to the church. It is a calling from God not from men. We see even among the apostles the need to have others to tend to the waiting of tables and such.

Pastors do not pastor a church to obtain monetary wealth. It is common for some to corrupt the pastoral office for money but they are not the ones called of God. The congregations that have such men are really admitting that they do not want a pastor to instruct them in obedience to Gods word but rather to give them feel good messages and books on self improvement. Christians do not strive for self improvement but to be more Christlike in their life.

Pastors need to be educated in the bible and held to accountability by their congregation. It has often been stated that a call to preach is a call to prepare.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
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113
#6
pastors have quite a different role from teachers actually. I wouldnt mix them up, though people like to put them in the same category, God has callings for both in his church.
Peter was told by Jesus to feed my sheep and to feed my lambs. He didnt tell Peter to instruct the sheep to obey him as if they were being wayward goats. It was more important that the sheep be fed.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#7
pastors have quite a different role from teachers actually. I wouldnt mix them up, though people like to put them in the same category, God has callings for both in his church.
Peter was told by Jesus to feed my sheep and to feed my lambs. He didnt tell Peter to instruct the sheep to obey him as if they were being wayward goats. It was more important that the sheep be fed.
According to Eph 4:11 the pastor and teacher roles are combined. A pastor must be apt to teach.

Peter was instructed to feed the lambs so they would obey the word of God not Peter. Focus.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Jim62

New member
Jan 8, 2021
10
7
3
#8
Many things we have and do today are not mentioned in the bible, it doesn't mean it's wrong because it's not mentioned in the bible. The fact it isn't mentioned in the bible certainly means it is not wrong as those things God considers wrong for us to do are all mentioned in the bible.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#9
I find it helpful to recognize that there were no deacons until there was a need. The history of the early church is an example of the dynamic organic growth that continues until this day.

There was a time when a Sunday School Bus ministry was effective in bringing kids in from the surrounding neighborhoods and many of these kids became sincere Christian believers as adults because of the seeds planted in their childhood due to the bus ministry. It was not in the early church at all. So what is my point?

The church is free to develop leadership models as the needs arise.

Usually one of the elders would have naturally taken a more senior role, and would have been deferred to as the spokesman for a group of elders. This can be seen in the role James played in Jerusalem and references to "pillars".

We know that this is how groups of people ultimately find the best order and I see the hand of God in the current order of senior pastor leadership model. There is an anointing of the Spirit upon those pastors that are called like Jesus called Peter, to feed the sheep. They will be held accountable. Pray for them and do your best to make their jobs easier.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#10
I am not asking the question about the role described by the word 'pastors' in Scripture, in Ephesians 4:11. My question is about the extent to which the modern concept of 'pastor' we see in the western world with his duties and responsibilities is actually taught in scripture.

Let us consider the actual leadership structure of the early church. Before the ascension, Jesus appointed 12 and designated them apostles (sent ones) sending them out with instructions to preach, heal, and do miracles. After the ascension, the apostles preached and were leaders in the church, which met and continued in the apostles doctrine. The collected money and fed widows. After some time, they asked the congregation to choose men full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom to handle the feeding of widows, and laid hands on these men choses to 'serve.' Some people think these may have been deacons (servants) of the church. Christians were scattered through persecution, forming new congregations in their new locations. By the time we get to chapter 11, there were elders in the Jerusalem church who received funds sent from Christians from out of town.

Then the Spirit spoke to saints in Antioch to separate Barnabas and Saul to the work to which He had called them, and they were _sent_ out by the Spirit. Acts 14:4 and 14 calls them 'apostles.' These apostles traveled to Crete and back to the mainland of Asia Minor. They would preach in various cities, mainly in the synagogues, and new congregations of believers would form. They left the churches without appointed ordained leaders for a time as they preached elsewhere, then returned and pointed 'elders in every church.'

In Titus 1, we read that Paul instructed Titus to appoint 'elders in every city.' There is a list of qualifications.

Acts 20:28 calls the elders of the church in Ephesus, calls them bishops/overseers, and tells them to pastor the church of God (look up the word translated 'feed' or 'tend' and compare to the word translated 'pastor' or 'shepherd') In I Peter 5:2, Peter tells the elders to oversee and pastor the flock of God. In Philippians, Paul salutes plural bishops in the city.

Some observations about the elders Paul and Barnabas appointed in Acts 14 and instructions about elders/bishops I Timothy 3, and Titus 1..

- They appointed 'elders' not 'youngers.' The word translated 'elders' can be translated as 'older men' or 'older ones.'
- They ordained elders from among the very same congregation of which they were a part before their appointment. They did not bring in a Bible college graduate from out of town.
- There was more than one elder in a given church. (And the church as treated as one congregation per city.)
- A seminary degree was not a qualification listed.
- Elders had to meet certain criteria related to family life and living a godly lifestyle.

The New Testament never says it is the job of one elder to preside over the church, the assembly of believers. Nowhere are they instructed to preach one long Sunday sermon. They are to be 'apt to teach,' but scripture does not say they are the only teachers in a church. How would one know they are 'apt to teach' if they are not allowed to teach before they are ordained? I Corinthians 14:26 indicates that 'every one of you'... within certain parameters described in the passage, could speak or sing in church, sharing a psalm, teaching, revelation, tongue, or interpretation. This, one, long passage about what to do in church meetings does not even mention the role of elders, bishops, or pastors. It does specifically gift prophets permission to speak in church, and 'ye...all'. Watchman Nee's observation on this is that when elders speak in church, they are functioning as teachers or prophets (I might add exhortation to the list.)

There is no scripture to support the idea of one man called 'the pastor' over a group of elders. Where did this idea come from? First of all, in the 200's, it became the custom to have one elder take the title of 'bishop' and be over the rest. But scripture calls all the elders in a city 'bishops.' During the Reformation, the Presbyterians created the division where 'pastor' was one church office over the elders. This happened by imitating the Geneva city government. Geneva tried to be a theocracy. They had their 'pastors' which they recognized as Biblical elders, but also they had city councilmen they also called 'elders', who were not considered elders of the church. John Knox was a big fan of Geneva and John Calvin. The Scottish Presbyterians imitated the Geneva city model and turned it into a national church system. They originally used verses about 'elders' to apply to their pastors, and used the verse that mentions 'governments' in I Corinthians 12 to refer to their elders. But over time, these ideas got confused. So they created the non-pastoral elder. And many churches have a 'pastor' over a committee of largely non-pastoral board elders.

- The Bible never gives pastors or elders any authority to declare people married. In the Bible, fathers gave their daughters in marriages.
- The Bible never says anything about pastors or elders burying people.
- The Bible does not teach the 'Sunday sermon' tradition. Nor does it teach that only one person my give a long address in church.

I believe that what we see in the churches today is not all a result of doing things wrong. Many things are also a result of doing things right. God has continued to guide those saints that were seeking Him with their whole hearts to do things the way He was leading them to do it and so many churches are very healthy in modeling the Holy Spirit intended example of a healthy church. The Holy Spirit has led them to have a senior pastor and they are not in need of reformation to some model one thinks they should follow from the first century that is based on assumptions and conjecture.

We should not try to identify an exact structure to follow from sketch information and apply it in a legalistic manner when we could be wrong about our assumptions of what it was really like. We should instead believe that we can pray and seek God and have the Holy Spirit direct us in the right now as to how our current church should bring glory to God and accomplish it's purpose and if that means that we should have a senior pastor this is not an "unbiblical model" to do so.

Preaching the Word of God empowered by the Spirit of God is still God's method. If you attend many Assemblies of God church (not all of them unfortunately) you will see several others contribute in operating in gifts of the Spirit, and edifying the whole body and yet there will also be a Sermon preaching time. All of these things can occur in the same service. So I do agree that a church that never allows these gifts to operate are missing out on how God intended for these assemblies to minister in the Holy Spirit as a group and not just one person doing all the speaking. Nevertheless the man or woman empowered with the Holy Spirit to bring forth a teaching or preaching from the Word of God that Glorifies Christ and causes people to have an encounter with God is still the best thing about assembling. I know that hymns were also sung and that there was corporate prayer and fellowship around food. These should all be part of a regular assembly and yet the preaching of the Word as a prophet with a Word from the Lord is the main reason I go to church and I think it always will be. When that is not there I judge the church as coming up short.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
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#11
According to Eph 4:11 the pastor and teacher roles are combined. A pastor must be apt to teach.

Peter was instructed to feed the lambs so they would obey the word of God not Peter. Focus.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
mmm but he was still told to feed the sheep and lambs. You got to focus on what Jesus is actually telling Peter to do, not just assume things and then go back and assume well its so they can be taught and the roles are all combined in one person.

Anybody who teaches knows that people don't learn as well if they are starving. People also don't work if they don't have enough to eat. Nobody is going to work or even obey if they can't eat or don't have enough to eat.

Now go back to the passage and read it. Did Jesus say Peter you got to do this because the sheep need to obey you? Or even the word of God? NOPE.
What did he say? Jesus first asked Peter to do this because he asked Peter 'do you love me more than these?'
He asked Peter if he loved him three times.

See, Jesus was asking about love, not obedience. He was saying in essence, Do You really love me? Show it by feeding my sheep.

Is it about obedience? Is it even about teaching? Well not really. It's about love. Looking after the sheep.

Chapter 21:15

I just wanted to make that distinction, because there are many teachers and many pastors and both can work together but to say its all on one person is a misnomer. In most ministries it's actually not just one person teaching and pastoring everybody.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#12
mmm but he was still told to feed the sheep and lambs. You got to focus on what Jesus is actually telling Peter to do, not just assume things and then go back and assume well its so they can be taught and the roles are all combined in one person.

Anybody who teaches knows that people don't learn as well if they are starving. People also don't work if they don't have enough to eat. Nobody is going to work or even obey if they can't eat or don't have enough to eat.

Now go back to the passage and read it. Did Jesus say Peter you got to do this because the sheep need to obey you? Or even the word of God? NOPE.
What did he say? Jesus first asked Peter to do this because he asked Peter 'do you love me more than these?'
He asked Peter if he loved him three times.

See, Jesus was asking about love, not obedience. He was saying in essence, Do You really love me? Show it by feeding my sheep.

Is it about obedience? Is it even about teaching? Well not really. It's about love. Looking after the sheep.

Chapter 21:15

I just wanted to make that distinction, because there are many teachers and many pastors and both can work together but to say its all on one person is a misnomer. In most ministries it's actually not just one person teaching and pastoring everybody.
Peter said: "Desire the sincere milk of the word that you may grow thereby" which leads me to believe he understood Jesus as telling him to feed the sheep with the Word of God.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
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#13
todays churches actually all have variety structures. Some are more rigid than others, I think if you go to one thats long established it will be quite different to one thats just been planted. Also it depends on the population of believers, I mean in some areas there are more young people than elders and others there are hardly any young people.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
7,188
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#14
Peter said: "Desire the sincere milk of the word that you may grow thereby" which leads me to believe he understood Jesus as telling him to feed the sheep with the Word of God.
true I dont' mean strictly literally but also that verse is about tasting the Lord's grace. Peter was actually an apostle, called himself a servant and referred to Jesus as the chief Shepherd in his epistle.

He had some stern things to say about false prophets and false teachers in his second letter.
Though he doesn't mention 'false pastors'. I'm supposing it's because love and good deeds can't be feigned with fancy words.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#15
Many things we have and do today are not mentioned in the bible, it doesn't mean it's wrong because it's not mentioned in the bible. The fact it isn't mentioned in the bible certainly means it is not wrong as those things God considers wrong for us to do are all mentioned in the bible.
Welcome to CC! :)

Be careful that you don't make an argument from silence, which is a logical fallacy. The Bible does not list every wrong behaviour, nor does it list every right behaviour. Is driving above the speed limit listed in Scripture? No, of course not. Yet it is controverting the law as given by God-ordained authorities, and abiding by that law does not violate higher principles.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,165
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#16
On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people
and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.
Acts 20:7

I did read your whole post :) You make some interesting observations :D
Paul was also an 'apostle', not a local, settled elder charged with overseeing the flock... during a time when the apostolic message had not been written down in scripture. And the word translated 'preached' or 'taught' there is the word from which we get dialogue and does not preclude teaching by means of discussion.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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#17
My question is about the extent to which the modern concept of 'pastor' we see in the western world with his duties and responsibilities is actually taught in scripture.
The New Testament pattern of church leadership was abandoned and/or altered quite early in the history of the Church. The Catholic and Orthodox churches went away even further.

But the Reformers (who came out the Catholic Church) did not go back to the NT pattern completely, or they modified it. Later on the majority of evangelical and fundamentalist churches also failed to see how the apostolic churches were set up and then follow their example.

God never expected one man to be the sole shepherd of a church. Neither did He stipulate that without a degree of some kind, men could not function in this capacity. On the contrary, the Lord Jesus Christ expressly forbade the apostles to take any kind of clerical titles, and that would apply through the ages.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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#18
Though he doesn't mention 'false pastors'. I'm supposing it's because love and good deeds can't be feigned with fancy words.
Peter had much to say about the elders (pastors) of churches and how they should conduct themselves. And his words corresponded to those of Paul.

What is generally missing from these discussions is that God had already described the duties of pastors long before the churches came into existence. And that is found in the book of Ezekiel (34:1-10), which shows us negatively what pastors (literally shepherds) should actually be doing.

EZEKIEL 34: GOD MEASURES PASTORS BY THIS STANDARD
1 And the Word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?
3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock.
4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.
5 And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.
6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them.
7 Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the Word of the LORD;
8 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock;
9 Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the Word of the LORD;
10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,191
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#19
Paul was also an 'apostle', not a local, settled elder charged with overseeing the flock... during a time when the apostolic message had not been written down in scripture. And the word translated 'preached' or 'taught' there is the word from which we get dialogue and does not preclude teaching by means of discussion.
Yet Paul very much did oversee the flock :) And his letters were in circulation during his lifetime, and considered Scripture by Peter.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#20
Neither did He (God) stipulate that without a degree of some kind, men could not function in this capacity. On the contrary, the Lord Jesus Christ expressly forbade the apostles to take any kind of clerical titles, and that would apply through the ages.
An earned degree is not the same thing as a clerical title; not by a long shot. It is merely an acknowledgement that a person has put in the requisite study and, hopefully, has a sound understanding of the material covered. I agree that a degree is not a requirement for eldership, and is too often used in place of other qualifications, but it doesn't contradict Jesus' preclusion at all.