The Pre-Tribulation Rapture: The Blessed Hope of the Saints

Gardenias · Dec 13, 2020

Greetings Pilgrimshope!

It is always important to pay attention to the details of scripture, especially in the book of Revelation.

The saints that the beast is given authority to mark war against and to conquer, are the great tribulation saints and not the church. This is the group which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language (Gentiles), who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17. These are those who will become believers in Christ after the church has been gathered off the earth.

The very fact that the elder is asking John who this group is and where they came from, tells us that this is not the church but another group. In addition, John says that he doesn't know who they are and this in light of the fact that he was previously asked to write letters to the seven churches.

If you will notice, the word ekklesia/church is used 19 time throughout chapters 1 thru 3. Then after that, the word changes to hagios translated as saints. No where in chapters 1 thru 3 are the words church and saints used interchangeably. The next time we see the church, she is designated as 'the bride' in Rev.19:6-8 at the wedding of the Lamb. The next time that the word church is used again, is in Rev.22:16.

Jesus took upon himself God's wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. Because of this, believers cannot and will not be on the earth to experience God's wrath. Also, God does not punish the righteous with the wicked.

There is a huge difference between the trials and tribulation that Jesus said we would have because of our faith in Him vs. God's unprecedented wrath. Believers are not appointed to suffer the later.

The church will be gathered prior to the opening of the first seal which initiates God's wrath

I totally agree we do not suffer Gods wrath. Jesus drank that cup on our behalf by his death,burial and resurrection!
I started out many years ago with the pre trib belief but the more I have studied we will be saved from HIS wrath,so Im leaning to mid trib beliefs bc of the promise to keep us from Gods wrath.

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 13, 2020

BenjaminN said:

Read the second LINK I just posted (I think it was at the second link).

Verse 1 speaks of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR] event" (both parts OF VERSE 1);

Verse 2 speaks of the earthly time-period (of JUDGMENTs-unfolding-followed-by-BLESSINGs [a GREAT DURATION OF TIME!!]);

Verse 3 is telling WHAT HAPPENS WHEN in relation [time-wise] TO THE OTHER THING or the SEQUENCE (of these TWO ^ DISTINCT ITEMS ^ )... but what you are doing is CONFLATING the TWO DISTINCT ITEMS (NOT in verse 1 which is speaking of ONE ITEM);
that is, Verse 1 (RAPTURE EVENT) is not the same ITEM as what Verse 2 is expressing (basically, [v.2] Paul telling them: "don't let anyone convince you that the DOTL *IS PRESENT [PERFECT INDICATIVE]*"... it wasn't, and he tells WHY)

BenjaminN · Dec 13, 2020

In regard to the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together unto him, let not any one deceive you, if the falling away may not come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the day doth not come.

2 Thessalonians 2 (Young's Literal Translation)

1 And we ask you, brethren, in regard to the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together unto him, 2 that ye be not quickly shaken in mind, nor be troubled, neither through spirit, neither through word, neither through letters as through us, as that the day of Christ hath arrived; 3 let not any one deceive you in any manner, because -- if the falling away may not come first, and the man of sin be revealed -- the son of the destruction, 4 who is opposing and is raising himself up above all called God or worshipped, so that he in the sanctuary of God as God hath sat down, shewing himself off that he is God -- [the day doth not come].

BenjaminN · Dec 13, 2020

Wrath from God <> Christian tribulation from an anti-Christian

1 Peter 4 (New King James Version)

Suffering for God’s Glory
12 Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you; 13 but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ’s sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy. 14 If you are [e]reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. [f]On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a [g]busybody in other people’s matters. 16 Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this [h]matter.

17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 Now

“If the righteous one is scarcely saved,
Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”

19 Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls to Him in doing good, as to a faithful Creator.

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 13, 2020

@BenjaminN ... the only thing you changed in your updated posts (#239 and #243) was to grab a cpl bible versions that at least correctly place the definite article ('the') before the Greek word "apostasia [/apo stasis]"...

[the rest of your post still has the same flaws, however... and which is what the REST of the ENTIRE ARTICLE would explain (had you read it), as well as the two posts of mine I had also linked--IOW, the issue of "the definite article ['the']" is only a SMALL PART of the solution... The OTHER problems have to do with the CONFLATING of TWO DISTINCT ITEMS in the passage, flaws being in grammar, and wrong DEFINITIONS of certain words in the passage, using "made up" ones, instead

]

BenjaminN · Dec 13, 2020

Brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, let no man deceive you by any means, for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2 (King James Version)

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 13, 2020

WHEN "the Day of the Lord" will have ARRIVED and "be present" (to unfold upon the earth), SO WILL have ARRIVED [SAME TIME] "the man of sin" to DO *ALL* he is slated [/prophesied] to DO, in those 7-years-which-will-then-commence-to-unfold-upon-the-earth ("IN THE NIGHT/DARK/DARNESS" aspect OF [the ENTIRE LONG WHOLE of] "the DOTL" time-period)

[and before that time-period can COMMENCE to unfold upon the earth with its "man of sin," ONE THING must take place *FIRST* !!! (Paul is telling what that ONE THING is which must happen *FIRST*!)

]

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 13, 2020

Again, take a LOOK at the 9x that the word "stasis [G4714]" is used in Scripture (related to the "apo stasis / apo stasia" word under discussion

)... and then NOTE its 9th occurrence (in Heb9:8-9a)... HOW is it used THERE??

[quoting from BibleHub]
[G4714]
stasis: standing, place, dissension
Original Word: στάσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: stasis
Phonetic Spelling: (stas'-is)
Definition: a rebel, revolutionist
Usage: an insurrection, dissension; originally: standing, position, place.

Shall we insist that its 9th occurrence MEANS the INDENTICAL THING that it does in ALL of its 8 OTHER OCCURRENCES??

BenjaminN · Dec 13, 2020

Matthew 13 (New King James Version)

The Parable of the Sower Explained

20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 13, 2020

BenjaminN said:

The Thessalonians were experiencing "persecutions and tribulations" even in the first century (2Th1:4), and is one reason why Paul needed to caution them NOT to be convinced by anyone trying to tell them that "the DOTL *IS PRESENT* [PERFECT INDICATIVE]"... which would be a REASONABLE thing for them to [wrongly] believe (based on their present and ONGOING, VERY NEGATIVE EXPERIENCES!!)

We are NOT awaiting the "future, specific, limited TIME PERIOD" in order to EXPERIENCE THESE!! These are the normative things that have taken place ALL THROUGHOUT the Church's existence on the earth since the first century!!

So this has nothing to do with the promise to be "kept out-from THE HOUR of..." (i.e. a CERTAIN / SPECIFIC, limited, future TIME-PERIOD [in which the "man of sin" WILL be present!! to DO *ALL* he is prophesied to DO, in that time-period (7-yrs)]--other ppl WILL exist in that time-period... those who will come to faith then [FOLLOWING "our Rapture"], and those who will not)

BenjaminN · Dec 13, 2020

The word tribulation's word origin is from the latin word tribulum, (English: wheat threshing-sledge, Hebrew: morag / מוֹרַג / Strongs H4173 ), used in the harvesting of wheat, to separate the wheat from the chaff in God's harvesting process which may entail tribulation.

Falling-away damage done by pretribulationism, to tribulation awareness of Christians, called to endure suffering in accordance with the will of God ( 1 Peter 4 - New King James Version - Suffering for God’s Glory - 17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 19 Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls to Him in doing good, as to a faithful Creator. )

Wikipedia Pretribulationism of 1833:

Pretribulationism distinguishes the rapture from the second coming of Jesus Christ mentioned in the Gospel of Matthew, 2 Thessalonians, and Revelation. This view holds that the rapture will precede the seven-year Tribulation, which will culminate in Christ's second coming and be followed by a thousand-year Messianic Kingdom.[5][6] Adherents of this perspective are referred to as premillennial dispensationalists. This theory grew out of the translations of the Bible that John Nelson Darby analyzed in 1833. Pretribulationism is the most widely held view in America today, although this view is disputed within evangelicalism.[7]

Withering of (suffering in accordance with the will of God: ) tribulation awareness (falling away) since 1833:

CollinsDictionary.com : tribulation (use in literature whithering since 1833):

Ahwatukee · Dec 13, 2020

Gardenias said:

Greetings Gardenias!

There shouldn't even be a mid or post tribulation belief. It is because of false teachings that we have these views.

During the entire seven years of tribulation God's wrath will be poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Since the believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then the church must be removed prior to the first seal being opened which initiates God's wrath and which again begins at the on-set of the seven years. Therefore, if the church was gathered in the middle of the seven years (mid-trib), then it would mean that believers would have gone through all of the seals and trumpet judgments of God's wrath, which we are not appointed to suffer. The post tribulation gathering is even worse in that, it puts the living church through God's entire wrath.

After Paul gave a detailed account of the gathering of the church in I Thessalonians 4:13-18, regarding this he said, "Therefore, comfort each other with these words." Now if the church was to go through God's wrath first, then how could we be comforted. For those in Christ would be going through the same punishment as the wicked.

Likewise, in Titus 2:13 Paul referred to the appearing of the Lord and our being gathered to Him as 'The Blessed hope." It certainly wouldn't be a blessed hope if believers were first going to have to go through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments! People who believe this need to do an in depth study on the those plagues of wrath and their results. They also need to understand that there is a difference between the trials and persecutions that Jesus said we would have because of our faith in him vs. God's coming wrath.

The bottom line to all of this, is that Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of all believers, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. The church will be gone before that ruler, the antichrist makes establishes his covenant with Israel. We will never see the antichrist. The Lord will have removed the church and will begin that last seven years in fulfillment of the decree upon Israel and Jerusalem and will also pour out His wrath upon a Christ rejecting world.

BenjaminN · Dec 13, 2020

Of the seven types of churches of Revelation 2 & 3, during the great tribulation, the faithful type of church as in Philadelphia, is kept from the trials to come:

Revelation 3 ( New King James Version)

The Faithful Church
7 “And to the [e]angel of the church in Philadelphia write, 10 Because you have kept [g]My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

the other six types of churches of Revelation 2 & 3, during the great tribulation, receives these warning messages:

Revelation 2 ( New King James Version)

The Loveless Church
1 “To the [a]angel of the church of Ephesus write, 4 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.

The Persecuted Church
8 “And to the [d]angel of the church in Smyrna write, 10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

The Compromising Church
12 “And to the [f]angel of the church in Pergamos write, 14 But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. 15 Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, [g]which thing I hate. 16 Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.

The Corrupt Church
18 “And to the [h]angel of the church in Thyatira write, 20 Nevertheless I have [k]a few things against you, because you allow [l]that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, [m]to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—

Revelation 3 ( New King James Version)

The Dead Church
1 “And to the [a]angel of the church in Sardis write, 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before [b]God. 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

The Lukewarm Church
14 “And to the [i]angel of the church [j]of the Laodiceans write, 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten.[l] Therefore be [m]zealous and repent. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 13, 2020

^ Two points:

--"churchES" (Rev2-3) are made up of BOTH "believers" AND "those who come in His name but who are not in actual/true vital-connection with Christ" [i.e. they are not saved... ex: those who are self-righteous, or who say "faith + something/anything = salvation/justification"... example: in Rev3, the "lukewarm" ARE NOT SAVED! (never were saved)]

[... is not the same thing as the phrase (and meaning) as...]

--"the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" which is made up ONLY of "believers" [/saved persons]

Pilgrimshope · Dec 14, 2020

luigi said:

do you notice how the book has changed now ? It’s sealed and in Gods hand , no one is worthy to open it , then Christ appears and is worthy because he was slain and redeemed men to God ?

now the book is smaller and open for all to read , and it’s given to John and apostle of the New Testament and he’s being told “ you must prophecy again to all people “

Do you think the two witnesses are the law and prophets ,(the ot) represented by Moses and Elijah ?

and the second time it is a New Testament witness representing the apostles of Christ having been made ministers of the New Testament sent out to all people ?

do you think the little open book represents the gospel ? The second testament that was sent to gentiles alike all people ?

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. ( revelation 5)

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

To simplify , do you think that the sealed book represents the old covenant which no one could fulfill but Christ when he came and died and rose , and then after he opens the book he gives the New Testament to John , a figure of the apostles and ministers of God ?

Lucy-Pevensie · Dec 14, 2020

Absolutely said:

You are denying that we've been told to hold fast & endure? Repeatedly?

We await the 2nd coming. Not a repeat of the first.
You will not be whisked away early.

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 14, 2020

MessageOfTheCross said:

If I am recalling correctly (and if this is the same video), I believe this is the one I had watched some time back... and was struck by the way in which each of our [mine and the video-maker's] "conclusions" (if you want to call it that) as to the "possible year or date" were within just a FEW years of each other, but to which we each have come to by means of different Scriptures (mine was not by means of the first "word" of the Bible, for example)... however, I did notice their use of the following verses, which I also point to (in my own study of this Subject):

"[...] for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me.

DECLARING

the END

FROM the BEGINNING"

[--Isaiah 46:9b-10a]

I personally think mine is the more accurate = ) , based on how I see the certain characteristics of what the "7-year-set [/70th Week]" seems to entail/possess (when examining the pertinent Scriptures describing it... where the time-stamps are supplied [both in readily apparent ways, and in not so readily apparent ones, but still present in the text in somewhat less obvious ways...])

I do find the Subject interesting to ponder... and I just wanted to make a brief comment about how closely similar [being "off" from each other only by a FEW, if I recall) the "year-set/date conclusions" that were arrived at (even when having come to them by somewhat disparate avenues... though still both from the Word of God! SO INTERESTING!

)

Absolutely · Dec 14, 2020

BenjaminN said:

Brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, let no man deceive you by any means, for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2 (King James Version)

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Yes,great verses
Pretrib rapture

Absolutely · Dec 14, 2020

Lucy-Pevensie said:

Amen.
Yes hold fast ,good word.

And yes never forget that.

And yes pretrib rapture

Absolutely · Dec 14, 2020

BenjaminN said:

Of the seven types of churches of Revelation 2 & 3, during the great tribulation, the faithful type of church as in Philadelphia, is kept from the trials to come:

Revelation 3 ( New King James Version)

The Faithful Church
7 “And to the [e]angel of the church in Philadelphia write, 10 Because you have kept [g]My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

the other six types of churches of Revelation 2 & 3, during the great tribulation, receives these warning messages:

Revelation 2 ( New King James Version)

The Loveless Church
1 “To the [a]angel of the church of Ephesus write, 4 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.

The Persecuted Church
8 “And to the [d]angel of the church in Smyrna write, 10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

The Compromising Church
12 “And to the [f]angel of the church in Pergamos write, 14 But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. 15 Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, [g]which thing I hate. 16 Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.

The Corrupt Church
18 “And to the [h]angel of the church in Thyatira write, 20 Nevertheless I have [k]a few things against you, because you allow [l]that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, [m]to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—

Revelation 3 ( New King James Version)

The Dead Church
1 “And to the [a]angel of the church in Sardis write, 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before [b]God. 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

The Lukewarm Church
14 “And to the [i]angel of the church [j]of the Laodiceans write, 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten.[l] Therefore be [m]zealous and repent. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Amen,as depicted in the 10 virgin parable.

Only the ones prepared are taken in the pretrib rapture.

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture: The Blessed Hope of the Saints

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