If the Rapture is true, just who are the saints beheaded by the Antichrist?

Hello Butterflyyy!

My God-given pleasure and you are welcome!

The key to understanding end-time events, is to address all related scriptures in order to get the full picture. The problem that I have been encountering is that people are bringing in partial information which they are basing their conclusions on. I can not and could never do that, because I have always wanted to know the truth, regardless of what conclusion it leads to.

This teachings that the church is going to go through the time of God's wrath is due to not understanding the underlying principle of what Christ did for us and not understanding the purpose of God's coming wrath, as well as the severity and magnitude of it.

"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God ; believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."

In the scripture above, Jesus says that there are many rooms in His Father's house, which could only be referring to heaven.

Jesus said that He was going there (the Father's house) to prepare places for us (believers). Again, those places that He went to prepare for us would be in the Father's house.

Then He says, I will come back and take you to be where I am. This means that when Jesus ascended to heaven He began preparing places for us in the Father's house which is in heaven and that He is coming back again to get us and take us back to those places that He prepared for us in the Father's house which is heaven. It really irks me when people act like they don't know what this scripture is saying and try to twist it to mean something else, or when they appear to have lost all reasoning and logic to be able to interpret the meaning of the context of simple words.

This promise in John 14:1-3 is directly linked with I Thessalonians 4:13-18 which is the detailed account of when Jesus comes back to take us to the Father's house.

"Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words."

So, when Jesus returns to come and take us back to the Father's house, He will descend from heaven to the atmosphere with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God. At that time the dead from the beginning of the church right up to when the Lord appears, will be reanimated and will rise from their graves in their immortal and glorified bodies. Immediately after that, the living will be transformed immortal and glorified in an atomos, which is Greek for a time period to short to be divided and they will be caught up with those who will have just resurrected. At that point the entire church from beginning to end will be in mid air with the Lord, where the entire group will be taken back to the Father's house.

God always leaves clues in His word:

"After this I looked and saw a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had previously heard speak to me like a trumpet was saying, “Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after these things.” - Revelation 4:1

In Revelation 1:10, John heard a loud voice speaking to him that sounded like a trumpet, which is identified as being the Lord. Then in Revelation 4:1, John hears that same voice that sounds like a trumpet saying to him "come up here!" I believe that the "Trumpet call of God" in I Thessalonians 4:16 is synonymous with the voice that sounds like a trumpet in Revelation 4:1. That said, I believe that Revelation 4:1 is a prophetic allusion to the promised gathering of the church given in John 14:1-3 and IThess.4:16-17.

I would also point out that, in the beginning of John 14:1-3, Jesus begins with "Let not your hearts be troubled." Likewise after Paul gives his detailed account of the Lord's appearing to gather His church in I Thessalonians 4:16-18, he says, "therefore, comfort each other with these words." That said, if the church were to go through the time of God's wrath, then our hearts would surely have reason to be troubled. Likewise, there would be no reason to comfort each other with those words if believers were in fact to go through God's wrath.

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Little children, I am with you only a little while longer. You will look for Me, and as I said to the Jews, so now I say to you: ‘Where I am going, you cannot come.’

“Lord, where are You going?” Simon Peter asked.

Jesus answered, “Where I am going, you cannot follow Me now, but you will follow later.”
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John 14:1-3, I Thessalonians 4:13-18 & I Corinthians 15:51-53, is when we will follow Him later to be where He is, which is in the Father's house.

First of all, it is not a misguided belief, but a promise. Why would you think that people would fall away? The true believers faith is in Christ crucified, buried and resurrected, not on when the gathering takes place.

Believers are told by the Lord and the apostles to watch and be ready for the Lord's imminent appearing. If the wrath of God was to come first along with all of the other related events, then we would know that we could not be gathered until God's wrath took place. Therefore, it would not be the truth when the Lord says, no one knows the time of His appearing.

When anyone believes and teaches against the Lord's imminent coming to gather His church and put us through the same punishment as the wicked, they are misleading people. We would be no different from the wicked, experiencing the same punishment as those who reject Christ.

Understand that there is a difference between the common trials and persecutions that Jesus said believers would have vs. God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. By teaching that the church will also go through God's wrath, you are not comforting them nor would it be a blessed hope. Those who teach this are doing damage to believers. In addition, those who believe that the Lord is going to first send His church through His wrath, are truly not believing that Jesus experienced God's wrath on behalf of every believer. They are talking out of both sides of their mouths.

When we became believers, we were credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God, yet you still believe that God is going to send us through His wrath? This is a legal issue. Since Jesus already satisfied God's wrath completely, then God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe. This is why believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.

In the 45 years that I have been studying end-time events, I have never waivered on this truth, because there is no scripture to suggest that believers will be going through God's time of wrath, nor is there any reasoning behind it. And why would they if we have already believed? Do you think that the Lord will be sending believers through is wrath just for the heck of it saying "Well, I know that I forgave you for all of your sins and have given you eternal life, but I'm gonna send you through my wrath anyway just for good measure."

I would suggest an in depth study of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and in lieu of what Jesus did and then ask yourself the question, is the Lord going to send His church/bride through His wrath?

Jesus hung on a cross for us all and asked his followers to do the same. The Hebrew people went through 10 plagues (God's wrath) to leave Egypt. The 12 disciples went through intense persecution. The early church was persecuted by the Catholics for hundreds of years, but the final church is just gonna get caught up before any trouble?

I beg you stop spreading lies, think about what happens, if someone who holds this as truth, and it doesn't happen. I will let it go now, it just pains me to no end, when fables are taught as Biblical truths.

By the way, I don't get my information from Google or youtube, but from scripture alone.

It is also important to understand that there is a difference between the Lord's appearing to gather the church vs. the Lord's returns to the earth to end the age.

The appearing of the Lord = The dead in Christ rise immortal and glorified, immediately followed by the living being changed immortal and glorified, the entire group meeting the Lord in the air where they are taken back to the Father's house. Once there we will stand at the Bema Seat for judgment to receive reward or loss of reward.

The Lord's return to the earth to end the age = After the 7th bowl has been poured out which completes God's wrath, the Lord with the bride/church and His angels, returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom.

In Revelation 19:6-8, we have the bride/church attending the wedding of the Lamb and receiving her fine linen, white and clean. Then in verse 14, we see the armies of heaven wearing that same fine linen, white and clean following the Lord out of heaven and riding on white horses. Regarding the Lord's returns to the earth, we also have the following information:

"They (beast and the ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

Those "called, chosen and faithful followers" who will be with the Lord as He returns to the earth, will be the church/bride who will have previously been resurrected and caught up.

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Hallelujah!

For our Lord God Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory!

For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.

Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.”

v.14 "The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.
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The fine linen, white and clean identifies who is riding on those white horses out of heaven.

Ahwatukee, how close do you feel we are away from rapture? I hope it is soon.

That is why I told you ahead of time in the previous post that it is important to understand that there is a difference between suffering trials and persecutions which come at the hands of men and the powers of darkness vs. God's coming wrath. You're not understanding the difference between these two and that is the error. This is why I suggested to do an in depth study on the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. God's direct wrath is coming upon this earth leading up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. But prior to that, John 14:1-3/I thess.4:13-18 will be fulfilled.

The disciples/apostles and first century church did not suffer God's wrath, but suffered the persecution that Jesus said we would because of our faith in Him. We however are not to suffer God's coming wrath, which will be His direct wrath.

Either Jesus experience God's wrath on our behalf or He didn't. If He did, then God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. If He didn't, then God's wrath still rests upon us. But it can't be both!

For those who believe that God is going to put believers through His wrath, then to them there is no difference between those who belong to the Lord and the wicked. Because you would have both experiencing the same punishment. Again, go do an in depth study on the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

To give you an idea, with just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet alone, a fourth and a third respectively, there will be over half the earths population killed. And that is not including the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1, 2 and 3 nor from the bowl judgments. By the time God's wrath has been completed, the majority of the earths population will have been decimated and all human government dismantled.

Why would you say that? (as though anyone is saying "the final church" will be raptured before ANY trouble... no, "the Church which is His body" has experienced "persecutions and tribulations" and "trouble" ALL THROUGHOUT its existence on the earth [some 2000 years], and that won't change even in the last century of its existence on the earth leading up to its rapture/departure. No. )


In fact, in the "70ad section" of the Olivet Discourse [Lk21:12-24] Jesus refers to "wrath" even THEN (quoted IN PART, below):

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. [note: this is not saying that all is fulfilled in the 70ad events (v.32's "ALL" ['TILL ALL be fulfilled'] includes the 2 lengthy items that v.24 had just mentioned!--see v.24 quoted below)]


23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the TIMES of the Gentiles be fulfilled. [note: "the TIMES of the Gentiles" referring to "Gentile domination over Israel"... as in, Neb's "dream/statue/image"... with Neb as "head of gold"... and which started back in 606/605bc...]



Of course, this was not nearly the extent of the "wrath" that is yet to take place (far-future from the 70ad events). More like a pre-cursor... a small snapshot, if you will...

"Oh, Lord - how it would be nice!"

But it is not reality.

It is a fantasy.

It is not biblical.

As much as we would like for it to be true - it is not. It is a false pretense.

Please be careful not to fall into the trap of its deception.

Yes... kind of you, sir.



My input was likewise offered in the event that it had not occurred to others... (and one reason why I myself do not care to use the "signature feature"--JMHO--as I rarely catch a glimpse of them, either, since I only log in to POST, but not to READ)

I know you believe in post trib so then how far away do you think we are from the 7 year tribulation?

Of course, I was/am referring specifically to "pretrib rapture" and not 'rapture' in general.

So you are a postrib rapture?? How long away do you feel we are from the 7 yr tribulation??

Hi Ruby!

Obviously, since the Lord said that He would come like a thief in the night and that no one would know at what time He would come, then I could not nor would I ever proclaim a date. However, the Lord has given us clues in His word that let us know that the time is near.

Something that is key to understanding end-time events, is that God's wrath must come first, which is also known as the day of the Lord.

Something else to understand, is this underlying principle which is that Christ experienced God's wrath on behalf of every believer. And because of this, God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe. Those who say they believe in Christ, but also put the church through God's, are speaking out both sides of their mouths, because though they say yes to Christ, they are also saying that He did not experience God's wrath on our behalf.

But back to your question, I believe that we are very, very close to the church being gathered. Going back to those clues, we have the information regarding the mark of the beast described in Revelation 13:16 and 14:9-12.

The mark of the beast will become valid during the middle of that last seven years and as the scripture states, without it no one will be able to buy or sell.

The mark of the beast technology has been evolving for many years beginning with the ATM's, followed by the Universal Product Code (UPC) and then the Point of Sale system (POS). Now we have the RFID chip which people in Sweden and here in the US, are now having implanted under the skin between the thumb and index finger to make purchases (buying). Three Square Market, a company in Wisconsin, is also chipping consenting employees. This chip technology will continue to evolve into something smaller and more applicable, for something the size of a grain of rice, though not a problem between the thumb and index finger, it is too big to go under the skin of the forehead. Therefore, I believe that this device/mark will evolve into something smaller and more applicable. The RFID chip technology checks both boxes of going under the skin of the hand and being used to make electronic purchases.

Now all of that said, since we are seeing the fulfillment of prophecy with the this RFID technology and this ultimately takes place during the time of God's wrath, then how close are we to the Lord's appearing and our being gathered to Him? No other generation has been able to make this claim. For we are seeing it. We will continue to see this evolve with more and more people making their purchases with the scan of their hand. But at some point, the Lord is going to come like a thief and gather the dead and the living, with His wrath to follow upon the earth, leading up to His return to the earth to end the age.

With all of this we are very close, but of course it will be according to the Father's timing. We just need to stay close, remaining in His word and in prayer, ready for whatever trials may come before the Lord comes to get us. Because I'm sure that there are going to be trials for believers in between now and the time the Lord appears to gather us. We need to always be prepared to keep our testimony of Jesus and the word of God regardless of what we face in between now and then, even should the Lord allow persecution and death.

Thankyou. Quite honestly I hope it happens next year.
Have you seen that Berisheet video. It is interesting, not sure if it is true??

There is no "7-year tribulation" - that is also part of the 'fantasy'.

We are in the tribulation period now.

It started circa 70 A.D. and will end at some point in time in the future.

By the end of it, the absolute majority of all Christians will have been beheaded for not worshipping the beast.

I know it does not sound very appealing - and is, in fact, very harsh; however, it is the truth according to the End Times prophecy of the Bible.

I believe we are definitely accelerating into the End Times Scenario.

It could be six months or ten years - it depends on how long 'certain' things take to transpire...

However - with certainty - it is "going down fast"...

Which one is that? What post?

It is not on this thread.
Anyway I don't think you would like it.

Why? Does it support 'pre-trib'?

Try me?

Well if pre trib is not true and beheading is imminent then as harsh as it may sound it will at least be quick.