The Pre-Tribulation Rapture: The Blessed Hope of the Saints

The entire previous post supports what I was proclaiming. Did you read it? I have posted below the information that I previously listed to support my claim:

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The saints that the beast is given authority to mark war against and to conquer, are the great tribulation saints and not the church. This is the group which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language (Gentiles), who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17. These are those who will become believers in Christ after the church has been gathered off the earth.

The very fact that the elder is asking John who this group is and where they came from, tells us that this is not the church but another group. In addition, John says that he doesn't know who they are and this in light of the fact that he was previously asked to write letters to the seven churches.

If you will notice, the word ekklesia/church is used 19 time throughout chapters 1 thru 3. Then after that, the word changes to hagios translated as saints. No where in chapters 1 thru 3 are the words church and saints used interchangeably. The next time we see the church, she is designated as 'the bride' in Rev.19:6-8 at the wedding of the Lamb. The next time that the word church is used again, is in Rev.22:16.

Jesus took upon himself God's wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. Because of this, believers cannot and will not be on the earth to experience God's wrath. Also, God does not punish the righteous with the wicked.

There is a huge difference between the trials and tribulation that Jesus said we would have because of our faith in Him vs. God's unprecedented wrath. Believers are not appointed to suffer the later.

The church will be gathered prior to the opening of the first seal which initiates God's wrath.
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It is a matter of utilizing all related scriptures and paying attention to the clues that God has left in His word.



What you are doing is pigeonholing those words. After the church has been gathered, there will still be people from every nation, tribe, people and languages on the earth.

Previously, John was told to write letters to the seven churches. Then in Rev.7:9-17 John sees a group which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language. The elder asks John who they are, which would demonstrate that they are not the church. In further support of this, John says that he doesn't know who this group is. You will also notice that this group is never referred to as the church, but as the saints who come out of the great tribulation.

This group is mentioned after the seals have been opened which would be within the the tribulation period, the time of God's wrath. As I have said so many times, the church is not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, because Jesus already experienced it on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely. That group which no man can count, will be on the earth during that time because they will have not been believers prior to the gathering of the church, which is why they will be exposed to everything that will be taking place on the earth. This is also why Jesus and the apostles continually warn believers to be watching and ready for the Lord's appearing, so that day of God's wrath does not close on us like a trap.

Revelation 4:1 is a prophetic allusion to where the church is gathered, which takes place prior to chapter 6 where the seals are opened. Jesus is that voice that sounds like a trumpet saying "come up here." It is after this that we no longer see the word church used. Yet in chapters 1 thru 3 the word 'church' is used 19 times. The word church is never used within the narrative of God's wrath. It is the word 'saints' that is used, which is referring to the great tribulation saints.



In Revelation 7, we have to new groups introduced:

1). The 144,000 from each of the twelve tribes, 12,000 from each tribe. These are Israelites who will recognize Jesus as their Messiah.

2). A great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, which would make them Gentiles

The 144,000 are all Israelites from each tribe, who in opposition of the unbelieving nation of Israel, will recognize Jesus as their Messiah.

The woman of Revelation 12 who is clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars is symbolically representing the unbelieving nation of Israel. We know this, because in Genesis 37:9-10, Joseph's dream uses the same symbols of the sun, moon and stars which symbolically represent Jacob, his wife/wives and his sons.

The woman/Israel gives birth to a male child which is a collective name for the 144,000 who come out of unbelieving Israel, ergo, gives birth to.

The next group which are those which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and nation, is that group of Gentiles who will become believers after the church has been gathered, who are identified as those saints who come out of the great tribulation. Again, this group cannot be the church, because the current believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.

So, your major error in all of this, is not taking into consideration that the church cannot be present on the earth during the time of God's wrath. Since Jesus has already satisfied God's wrath, then said wrath no longer rests upon the believer, which means that we cannot be exposed to it. Anyone who claims that the church will be on the earth during the time of God's wrath, is truly not believing that Jesus already experienced God's wrath on our behalf.

"Surely He took on our infirmities and carried our sorrows; yet we considered Him stricken by God, struck down and afflicted.

But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him,

and by His stripes we are healed."

First of all, in the above scripture the "one taken" group is not referring to the church being caught up. Those who are taken are being compared to those who were taken away in the flood, i.e. the wicked. So the comparison is wicked to wicked. Those being taken will be the wicked who will have made it alive through the tribulation and are those whom the angels will gather and who will be taken to be killed by that double-edged sword which proceeds from the mouth of the Lord. And then the birds will gorge themselves on their flesh. - (Rev.19:17-18, 21)

Well stated sir.... Israel is always seen as the "wife" of God and never a "bride". Another way to look at it would be, The Covenant Lord of Israel has a wife and the Son of man will soon take one. A love gift from His Father.

Many it seems mistaken Luke 17:35&36 and some sort of "rapture verses" but the ones being taken are taken for judgement. The ones left behind, will enter into the millennial Kingdom.

Keep up the good work.

First of all, in the above scripture the "one taken" group is not referring to the church being caught up. Those who are taken are being compared to those who were taken away in the flood, i.e. the wicked. So the comparison is wicked to wicked. Those being taken will be the wicked who will have made it alive through the tribulation and are those whom the angels will gather and who will be taken to be killed by that double-edged sword which proceeds from the mouth of the Lord. And then the birds will gorge themselves on their flesh. - (Rev.19:17-18, 21)

magazine I’m reading all things coming from you but those scriptures don’t say anything that you are saying is my point I agree we should use the scripture brother indeed I do

I believe this , if Christ returns tomorrow all who are still alive believe who’ll be “ raptured “ to Meet him in the air together with all those who went before like it actually says

this is if he came tomorrow a guy like you a believer would experience this

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭


Not death you will experience but a glorification of yours body that day

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:51-52‬

yet if the church was raptured why is Paul the chosen revelation of the nt teaching this ?

And if day he returns in a thousand years from now and you die in faith I believe your spirit is going to be “ raptured “ from your dead flesh body into the body of Christ in heaven ( those people redeemed from all nations of course )

Well stated sir.... Israel is always seen as the "wife" of God and never a "bride".

He went up to the heavens. The air

Hebrew Word: ‏שָׁמֶה‎
Transliteration: shâmeh
Phonetic Pronunciation: shaw-meh'

Root: from an unused root meaning to be lofty
Cross Reference: TWOT - 2407a
Part of Speech: n m
Vine's Words: Heavens Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

2 Samuel 21:10 (KJV)
10 And Rizpah the daughter of Aiah took sackcloth, and spread it for her upon the rock, from the beginning of harvest until water dropped upon them out of heaven, and suffered neither the birds of the air to rest on them by day, nor the beasts of the field by night.

Ya think water dropped out of heaven where God is? Or from the clouds above the earth?

I agree with and teach everything that you have said above.‭



Not quite understanding what you are asking here. The Lord's appearing and our being gathered to Him, has always been imminent. It is the next event that will take place.



Not quite sure what you are saying here either. I seriously don't believe that we have a thousand years. But I believe that this is the generation that won't pass away until all of these events have taken place.

The next event that will happen according to the promise in John 14:1-3 and I Thess.4:13-18, is that the Lord will come, where the dead in Christ will be resurrected and the living will be changed and caught up with them, in our immortal and glorified bodies. Once that takes place, the time of God's wrath will begin, with the revealing of that antichrist who will make that seven year covenant with Israel, as described in Daniel 9:27. This will allow Israel to build their temple and begin their sacrificial offerings according to the law. Then, in the middle of the seven years, that ruler, the antichrist, will put a stop to the sacrifices and offerings and will set up that abomination in the holy place within the temple. I believe that this abomination is synonymous with the image that the second beast/false prophet has the inhabitants of the earth make in honor of the first beast who will survive his deadly wound.

During this same time, the Lamb will begin to open the seals, which are followed by the trumpets and then the bowl judgments. These plagues of wrath will decimate the majority of the population of the earth and dismantle all human government. This is supported by when Jesus said, "If those days had not been shortened, then no one would be left alive." In other words, if those days were allowed to go on any longer than that last 3 1/2 years, everyone would be dead. There would be no one to enter into the millennial kingdom to repopulate the earth. And people actually think that the Lord is going to send His church/bride through the time period of His wrath.

We are getting very close to the Lord's coming to gather His church, which can be seen by the spiritual state of the world. And the fact that we already have the mark of the beast technology and people already using it, is another red flag that we are in the last generation. Since the church must be removed prior to the opening of the first seal which initiates God's wrath, then we are very close indeed!

Regarding the resurrection, it is translated from the word 'anastasis' which properly means 'to stand up again in the same physical body that you died in." At that moment, the bodies of the dead in Christ from the on-set of the church up to the resurrection, their bodies will be reanimated with their spirits reuniting with their bodies. After that, those who are still alive and regardless of what they are doing, will just be transformed, immortal and glorified, in a moment of time which is too short to divide. That's how quick that transformation will take place.

Well stated sir.... Israel is always seen as the "wife" of God and never a "bride". Another way to look at it would be, The Covenant Lord of Israel has a wife and the Son of man will soon take one. A love gift from His Father.

Many it seems mistaken Luke 17:35&36 and some sort of "rapture verses" but the ones being taken are taken for judgement. The ones left behind, will enter into the millennial Kingdom.

Keep up the good work.

""Many it seems mistaken Luke 17:35&36 and some sort of "rapture verses" but the ones being taken are taken for judgement. The ones left behind, will enter into the millennial Kingdom.""

The one taken verses are the rapture.
Go back and reread it.
In luke the setting is lot and pre judgement.
Pretrib gathering and ALIGNS PERFECTLY with mat 25 where AGAIN 50% are taken.

Both rapture verses
Both 50% taken/left.

Read where it says "2 in a bed"
If wicked are taken,you have a wicked in bed with a righteous....so that is not plausable. Nor biblical.

Then compare in mat 24.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

No way that is not referring to the rapture.
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
The rapture

there is no rapture before he returns it’s going to be like Noah’s day Noah’s only warning was what God told him was coming upon the world , and what he told Noah to do to be saved . That’s the state of our world now

“For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away;

so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:38-40‬ ‭KJV‬‬

one of those on the field will experience this on that day , the one who is taken will be a believer a member of the church of Christ on earth


“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The one left behind will experience this that day

“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believed in that day.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s a lot simpler than we’re making it the church will be on earth from when Jesus was taken into heaven until he returns .

the “ millennial kingdom “ um are you referring to the first resurrection ? That’s a whole nother subject . Really doesn’t connect to whether the church is raptured from earth before the end , we won’t be . The final day when Jesus returns the church will be one earth

this is after the tribulations . The tribulation brother is described as beginning and birth pains , and building over time until the end until the final day when the lord comes back the way he left into heaven . The way to be “ raptured “ spiritually speaking is to accept and believe the gospel the church is all there is on earth of God

No
We which are alive and remain meet those raised from the dead.

It is not something spiritual and abstract.
It is an event
Jesus said he has prepared a place in heaven.

The rapture is the gathering of the bride.

It is way simpler than you are making it.

Mat 25 is the rapture.
Half taken,half left.
Vividly depicted.

""the “ millennial kingdom “ um are you referring to the first resurrection ? That’s a whole nother subject . Really doesn’t connect to whether the church is raptured from earth before the end , we won’t be . The final day when Jesus returns the church will be one earth ""
I never referred to the mil.

You did.

You got it all jumbled together

""the “ millennial kingdom “ um are you referring to the first resurrection ? That’s a whole nother subject . Really doesn’t connect to whether the church is raptured from earth before the end , we won’t be . The final day when Jesus returns the church will be one earth ""
I never referred to the mil.

You did.

You got it all jumbled together

No
We which are alive and remain meet those raised from the dead.

It is not something spiritual and abstract.
It is an event
Jesus said he has prepared a place in heaven.

The rapture is the gathering of the bride.

It is way simpler than you are making it.

Mat 25 is the rapture.
Half taken,half left.
Vividly depicted.

""the “ millennial kingdom “ um are you referring to the first resurrection ? That’s a whole nother subject . Really doesn’t connect to whether the church is raptured from earth before the end , we won’t be . The final day when Jesus returns the church will be one earth ""
I never referred to the mil.

You did.

You got it all jumbled together

yes because there’s only one message and one people and one return of Jesus Christ I do have it all together as one message , one day that the church is waiting for . There’s only the one way of salvation , one gathering of the church , one kingdom of God , one Lord , Faith and baptism , One God and father over all , one mediator between God and man.

that’s a big part of what I believe so you have perceived that correctly I see it as one message not something we need to calculate but one we need to believe

“Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you.

I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:1-4, 6-7‬ ‭

yes because there’s only one message and one people and one return of Jesus Christ I do have it all together as one message , one day that the church is waiting for . There’s only the one way of salvation , one gathering of the church , one kingdom of God , one Lord , Faith and baptism , One God and father over all , one mediator between God and man.

that’s a big part of what I believe so you have perceived that correctly I see it as one message not something we need to calculate but one we need to believe

“Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you.

I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:1-4, 6-7‬ ‭

What do you think you have established with those verses?

"" There is no rapture before he returns it’s going to be like Noah’s day Noah’s only warning was what God told him was coming upon the world , and what he told Noah to do to be saved . That’s the state of our world now ""

Yes prejudgement He was told.

...and prejudgement Noah began to rise over a mile into the sky away from the earth via the flood/trib /judgement.

The earth, and inhabitants, were judged....underneath Noah.
Which vividly depicts pretrib rapture.

Both Noah and lot were removed. They left.

Rapture is that same departure.

The last supper dialog
Lot
Noah
1 thes 4
Rev 14
Mat 25
Mat 24

All have departures
All to a better place
All good departures

Your scenario leaves that out.