The Pre-Tribulation Rapture: The Blessed Hope of the Saints

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
2,112
113
#81
Rev 5 is resurrection day TDW. The Lamb appears in heaven, he has PREVAILED so that he is worthy to open the 7 seals of the SEALED BOOK, he’s made us kings and priests. Ten thousand times ten thousand is the Old Testament saints taken up with Jesus.
You're attempting to say that Rev5:9 is set in the context of the first century.

However, as my past posts have shown,

--Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 speaks of "things which must come to pass" that are BEYOND (i.e. AFTER) "the things WHICH ARE" (the "NOW" things of chpts 2-3), and which are stated (in 1:1) "must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (i.e. in the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book... which 4:1 thru chpt 19 shows the SAME "BEGINNING, MIDDLE, and END" correlations that are also shown in several OTHER Scripture sections, like: the Olivet Discourse [esp Matt24], 2Th2:3-9a, Dan9:27a/b/c[26b], etc... each of them referring to the future, specific, limited time period we commonly call "the [7-yr] Tribulation Period, WHEN "the man of sin" will also exist in it and DO ALL he is slated to DO within those years--"IN HIS TIME").

Additionally, Paul said he would receive "stephanos/crown" IN THAT DAY" (not after his death), and "not to him only"... and what the 24 elders are shown "wearing" is also referred to in chpt 3 ( promised during the time period "the things WHICH ARE," i.e. "NOW")--WHY IS THAT?!

Also, note the "was found" word in 5:4... which is the SAME word used when Paul was brought before their [human] BEMA, in the latter parts of Acts... THUS evidencing that a "searching judgment" has ALREADY TAKEN PLACE in this Rev5 CONTEXT.
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
#82
You're attempting to say that Rev5:9 is set in the context of the first century.

However, as my past posts have shown,

--Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 speaks of "things which must come to pass" that are BEYOND (i.e. AFTER) "the things WHICH ARE" (the "NOW" things of chpts 2-3), and which are stated (in 1:1) "must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (i.e. in the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book... which 4:1 thru chpt 19 shows the SAME "BEGINNING, MIDDLE, and END" correlations that are also shown in several OTHER Scripture sections, like: the Olivet Discourse [esp Matt24], 2Th2:3-9a, Dan9:27a/b/c[26b], etc... each of them referring to the future, specific, limited time period we commonly call "the [7-yr] Tribulation Period, WHEN "the man of sin" will also exist in it and DO ALL he is slated to DO within those years--"IN HIS TIME").

Additionally, Paul said he would receive "stephanos/crown" IN THAT DAY" (not after his death), and "not to him only"... and what the 24 elders are shown "wearing" is also referred to in chpt 3 ( promised during the time period "the things WHICH ARE," i.e. "NOW")--WHY IS THAT?!
I’m just planting seeds, giving an alternate view that some may not have considered. 😊

Besides that, how is that Jesus was neither in heaven, in the earth, nor under the earth when the question was asked “who is worthy to open the book”? Where was he?

There is only one answer to that question.
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#83
According to the first fruits offering no other harvest shall be done untill the first fruits are presented and excepted.
Revelation 5 imo brings us into the feast of trumpets as John had heard the voice as if it were a trumpet.
Which means that it will be a pre-trib rapture.
There are many offerings that take place before each feast such as the days of awe and so fourth.
But for sure untill the first fruits offering is excepted no other harvesting will take place.
This is the best proof for pre-trib for it is God's word and rule.
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
#84
According to the first fruits offering no other harvest shall be done untill the first fruits are presented and excepted.
Revelation 5 imo brings us into the feast of trumpets as John had heard the voice as if it were a trumpet.
Which means that it will be a pre-trib rapture.
There are many offerings that take place before each feast such as the days of awe and so fourth.
But for sure untill the first fruits offering is excepted no other harvesting will take place.
This is the best proof for pre-trib for it is God's word and rule.
But don't you believe the OT saints are the firstfuits?
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#87
They were raised 2000 years ago, how does that prove a "pre-trib rapture"?
You missed the whole point my friend. You can not have another harvest untill the first fruits offering is presented and excepted according to Gods law.
Revelation has 2 harvest that are to be.....there fore a pre-trib rapture that has been accepted must take place.
Over and out.
 

Wall

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2013
1,417
154
63
#88
The next time we see the church, she is designated as 'the bride' in Rev.19:6-8 at the wedding of the Lamb.
You claim the church is the bride. OK. Who is the bride according to scripture

JEREMIAH 3 [20] SURELY AS A WIFE TREACHEROUSLY DEPARTETH FROM HER HUSBAND, SO HAVE YE DEALT TREACHEROUSLY WITH ME, O HOUSE OF ISRAEL, SAITH THE LORD. [21] A voice was heard upon the high places, weeping and supplications of the children of Israel: for they have perverted their way, and they have forgotten the LORD their God. [22] Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God.

Israel is the bride

JEREMIAH 2 [31] O generation, see ye the word of the Lord. Have I been A WILDERNESS UNTO ISRAEL? a land of darkness? wherefore say my people, We are lords; we will come no more unto thee? [32] Can a maid forget her ornaments, OR A BRIDE HER ATTIRE? yet my people have forgotten me days without number.

Israel the bride

JEREMIAH 3 [11] And the LORD said unto me, THE BACKSLIDING ISRAEL hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.[12] Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.[13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.[14] TURN, O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, SAITH THE LORD; FOR I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: AND I WILL TAKE YOU ONE OF A CITY, AND TWO OF A FAMILY, AND I WILL BRING YOU TO ZION:

Backsliding Israel. I am married unto you. Israel is the bride. I will take you one of a city, and two of a family. Sound familiar?

LUKE 17 [33] Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. [34] I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER SHALL BE LEFT. [35] Two women shall be grinding together; THE ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT. [36] Two men shall be in the field; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT.

Sure does. And they are not going to heaven {as the rapturist claim} but are taken to Zion {Jer.3v14} for the 1000yr period of rest.

REVELATION 21 {9} And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I WILL SHEW THEE THE BRIDE, THE LAMB'S WIFE. {10} And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, {11} Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; {12} And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of THE TWELVE TRIBES OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL:

Theres the bride according to this new covenant scripture. Its the 12 tribes of Israel, just as the old testament says.
 

Wall

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2013
1,417
154
63
#89
So if the bride is Israel as scripture points out, wheres that leave the gentiles?

MATTHEW [24] But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Ya see what Jesus said

JOHN 10 [14] I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. [15] As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. [16] And OTHER SHEEP I HAVE, WHICH ARE NOT OF THIS FOLD: THEM ALSO I MUST BRING, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and ONE SHEPHERD.

I MUST BRING! Jesus said there were “others” not of the fold of the house of Israel. These “others” are the gentiles that hear His voice. Them also He will bring.... Bring where? Bring to heaven as the raptuist claim? Nope. At the time when Jesus does bring us we will have but ONE SHEPHERD.

EZEKIEL 37 [21] And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will GATHER THEM on every side, and BRING THEM INTO THEIR OWN LAND: [22]And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: [23] Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. [24] And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have ONE SHEPHERD: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. [25] And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. [26] Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. [27] My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

Jesus gathers His people {in the twinkling of an eye} and BRINGS them to Israel, to the kingdom. Its then we will have but ONE SHEPHERD

ZECHARIAH 8 [7] Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country; [8] And I will BRING THEM, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE, AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD {Zeke37v27}, in truth and in righteousness

The kingdom rest will be in the midst of Jerusalem

ISAIAH 56 [6] Also THE SONS OF THE STRANGER, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one THAT KEEPETH THE SABBATH from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; [7] EVEN THEM WILL I BRING TO MY HOLY MOUNTAIN, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. [8] The Lord God which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, YET WILL I GATHER OTHERS TO HIM, beside those that are gathered unto him.

Jesus brings them to His Holy Mountain. The kingdom rest. Yes, the “others” {John 10v16} {Isaiah 56v8} are the gentiles. So when the LAST TRUMPET {1Cor.15} sounds we meet the Lord in the air and Jesus “brings” us to His holy mountain in Jerusalem for the kingdom rest. Not off to heaven as the Rapturist claim.
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
#90
You missed the whole point my friend. You can not have another harvest untill the first fruits offering is presented and excepted according to Gods law.
Revelation has 2 harvest that are to be.....there fore a pre-trib rapture that has been accepted must take place.
Over and out.
So the Old Testsment saints are in heaven
You claim the church is the bride. OK. Who is the bride according to scripture

JEREMIAH 3 [20] SURELY AS A WIFE TREACHEROUSLY DEPARTETH FROM HER HUSBAND, SO HAVE YE DEALT TREACHEROUSLY WITH ME, O HOUSE OF ISRAEL, SAITH THE LORD. [21] A voice was heard upon the high places, weeping and supplications of the children of Israel: for they have perverted their way, and they have forgotten the LORD their God. [22] Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God.

Israel is the bride

JEREMIAH 2 [31] O generation, see ye the word of the Lord. Have I been A WILDERNESS UNTO ISRAEL? a land of darkness? wherefore say my people, We are lords; we will come no more unto thee? [32] Can a maid forget her ornaments, OR A BRIDE HER ATTIRE? yet my people have forgotten me days without number.

Israel the bride

JEREMIAH 3 [11] And the LORD said unto me, THE BACKSLIDING ISRAEL hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.[12] Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.[13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.[14] TURN, O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, SAITH THE LORD; FOR I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: AND I WILL TAKE YOU ONE OF A CITY, AND TWO OF A FAMILY, AND I WILL BRING YOU TO ZION:

Backsliding Israel. I am married unto you. Israel is the bride. I will take you one of a city, and two of a family. Sound familiar?

LUKE 17 [33] Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. [34] I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER SHALL BE LEFT. [35] Two women shall be grinding together; THE ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT. [36] Two men shall be in the field; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT.

Sure does. And they are not going to heaven {as the rapturist claim} but are taken to Zion {Jer.3v14} for the 1000yr period of rest.

REVELATION 21 {9} And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I WILL SHEW THEE THE BRIDE, THE LAMB'S WIFE. {10} And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, {11} Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; {12} And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of THE TWELVE TRIBES OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL:

Theres the bride according to this new covenant scripture. Its the 12 tribes of Israel, just as the old testament says.
How does God divorcing Israel fit as Israel being the bride of Christ?

Jer 3:8 (KJV) And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
 

Wall

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2013
1,417
154
63
#91
How does God divorcing Israel fit as Israel being the bride of Christ?

Jer 3:8 (KJV) And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
MERCY!

Isaiah 14:1 (KJV)
1 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,375
113
#92
You claim the church is the bride. OK. Who is the bride according to scripture

JEREMIAH 3 [20] SURELY AS A WIFE TREACHEROUSLY DEPARTETH FROM HER HUSBAND, SO HAVE YE DEALT TREACHEROUSLY WITH ME, O HOUSE OF ISRAEL, SAITH THE LORD. [21] A voice was heard upon the high places, weeping and supplications of the children of Israel: for they have perverted their way, and they have forgotten the LORD their God. [22] Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God.

Israel is the bride

JEREMIAH 2 [31] O generation, see ye the word of the Lord. Have I been A WILDERNESS UNTO ISRAEL? a land of darkness? wherefore say my people, We are lords; we will come no more unto thee? [32] Can a maid forget her ornaments, OR A BRIDE HER ATTIRE? yet my people have forgotten me days without number.

Israel the bride

JEREMIAH 3 [11] And the LORD said unto me, THE BACKSLIDING ISRAEL hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.[12] Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.[13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.[14] TURN, O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, SAITH THE LORD; FOR I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: AND I WILL TAKE YOU ONE OF A CITY, AND TWO OF A FAMILY, AND I WILL BRING YOU TO ZION:

Backsliding Israel. I am married unto you. Israel is the bride. I will take you one of a city, and two of a family. Sound familiar?
Hello Wall!

This scripture is not supporting your claim. Israel is the wife of God, i.e. already married. While the church is the bride of Christ, which is in the betrothal state. It is not until the church is resurrected and the living are changed and caught up and taken to the Father's house, that the wedding of the Lamb will take place, which is revealed in Rev.19:6-8, where the bride receives her fine linen, white and clean. Then in Rev.19:14, the bride, now the wife, are shown following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing her same fine linen that she will have received at the wedding.

It is just a simple matter of understanding of the difference between the meaning of wife and bride. Israel is the wife of God, while the church is still in her betrothal state as a bride. Sometime soon, the bridegroom will come back for His bride and will take her to the Father's house where the wedding will take place.

Backsliding Israel. I am married unto you. Israel is the bride.
In the verse above you are claiming two different phases of the marriage process. Since Israel is already married, then she cannot be a bride.

Therefore, Israel is already married, but the church is still in her betrothal state, as the bride.

LUKE 17 [33] Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. [34] I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER SHALL BE LEFT. [35] Two women shall be grinding together; THE ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT. [36] Two men shall be in the field; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT.[/quote]

First of all, in the above scripture the "one taken" group is not referring to the church being caught up. Those who are taken are being compared to those who were taken away in the flood, i.e. the wicked. So the comparison is wicked to wicked. Those being taken will be the wicked who will have made it alive through the tribulation and are those whom the angels will gather and who will be taken to be killed by that double-edged sword which proceeds from the mouth of the Lord. And then the birds will gorge themselves on their flesh. - (Rev.19:17-18, 21)
 

Wall

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2013
1,417
154
63
#93
Israel is the wife of God, i.e. already married. While the church is the bride of Christ, which is in the betrothal state.
REVELATION 21 {9} And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I WILL SHEW THEE THE BRIDE, THE LAMB'S WIFE. {10} And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, {11} Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; {12} And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of THE TWELVE TRIBES OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL:

I dont have man made stories to follow as you do. No rabbits to chase into rabbit holes. No claiming the last trumpet isnt really the last trumpet. Only what the Word says
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,018
5,688
113
#94
Greetings Pilgrimshope!

It is always important to pay attention to the details of scripture, especially in the book of Revelation.

The saints that the beast is given authority to mark war against and to conquer, are the great tribulation saints and not the church. This is the group which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language (Gentiles), who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17. These are those who will become believers in Christ after the church has been gathered off the earth.

The very fact that the elder is asking John who this group is and where they came from, tells us that this is not the church but another group. In addition, John says that he doesn't know who they are and this in light of the fact that he was previously asked to write letters to the seven churches.

If you will notice, the word ekklesia/church is used 19 time throughout chapters 1 thru 3. Then after that, the word changes to hagios translated as saints. No where in chapters 1 thru 3 are the words church and saints used interchangeably. The next time we see the church, she is designated as 'the bride' in Rev.19:6-8 at the wedding of the Lamb. The next time that the word church is used again, is in Rev.22:16.

Jesus took upon himself God's wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. Because of this, believers cannot and will not be on the earth to experience God's wrath. Also, God does not punish the righteous with the wicked.

There is a huge difference between the trials and tribulation that Jesus said we would have because of our faith in Him vs. God's unprecedented wrath. Believers are not appointed to suffer the later.

The church will be gathered prior to the opening of the first seal which initiates God's wrath
Yes it’s very important to pay attention to scripture do you have any that support your interpretations there ? I’m sure open to the scripture but I don’t think it actually supports your theory . But I’m open to those scriptures I need to pay attention to so I’ll wait for your response so I can pay attention to those scriptures . Would love to see what you are saying in those scriptures your going to provide



the people from all nations got there by doing this

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s the only way people from all nations can enter into the kingdom . By doing this

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬


That’s those folks from all nations tongues and people before the throne the church , or “ body of Christ”

all it really is brother is a vision showing the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham

“And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭26:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the 144000 that are shown before this great multitude from all nations , they are those of the ot only from the tribes of Israel. The gentiles are the great multitude from all Nations. Because it shows both groups is showing this

“How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭3:3-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Your seeing in revelation the gentiles were included along with Israel so you have the group from the o.t. When the law seperated israel unto God you have the tribes of Israel

“And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:4, 9‬ ‭

the end will come like it did in Noah’s time life will be occurring as usual and suddenly Christ will come. When he does he will gather his elect who remain on earth , bringing with him those who fell beforehand .

it’s just a one time event

“For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:

and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:15-17‬ ‭

“And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. A

They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭17:26-30‬ ‭

the only warnings we have are what God has said about what’s coming , until one day there he will be . There’s a lot of scripture for you to “ pay close attention to “ that support my side of the discussion I will wait for the scriptures that you suggest I should pay attention to .

God bless brother

“For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭5:2-6‬ ‭

Understanding revelation it helps to do this

“If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,375
113
#95
REVELATION 21 {9} And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I WILL SHEW THEE THE BRIDE, THE LAMB'S WIFE. {10} And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, {11} Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; {12}

I dont have man made stories to follow as you do. No rabbits to chase into rabbit holes. No claiming the last trumpet isnt really the last trumpet. Only what the Word says
I do not deal in rabbit holes, but make my conclusions based on all related scriptures. I am zealous for the truth and accuracy of God's word. I don't guess at interpretations because I want to know the truth regardless of the conclusion.

The scripture that you posted above is from Revelation 21 describing the eternal state, which takes place after the millennial kingdom and after the great white throne judgment. Therefore, since the wedding of the Lamb to the bride/church takes place in Revelation 19:6-8, which takes place in heaven during the tribulation period, then it would stand to reason that when in Revelation 21 the church at that time would be the wife of Christ and no longer the Lord's bride.

By the way, if you are going to try to insinuate that the New Jerusalem is the wife of the Lamb, you would be wrong also. It is in reference to those who will occupy the city and not the city itself. If we use our heads here, Christ did not shed His blood for a city, but for those who will occupy it.

To recap, the church/bride is currently in the betrothal stage of the marriage process, which is akin to having a fiancé, i.e. the couple is not married yet, but are pledged to be. Once the church/bride attends the wedding of the Lamb in Rev.19:6-8, then from that time forward she will be the wife of the Lamb, which is what we are seeing in the scripture that you provided above.

Prior to a wedding = a bride

After the wedding = a Wife

And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of THE TWELVE TRIBES OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL:
By putting the twelve tribes of Israel in upper case, you are attempting to prove that the Israel is the wife of the Lamb, which again would be incorrect. It is revealing that you left out the verse that follows, which reveals that the New Jerusalem not only has the names of the twelve tribes of Israel written on the 12 gates, but the names of the twelve apostles, which represents the church, is also written on the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem, as revealed below:

"On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb."

You conveniently left off verse 14 and that because you only wanted to make your claim.

Everyone who comes to Christ, whether Jew or Gentile belongs to the church, who are collectively the bride of Christ.

I would urge you to be concerned for the real truths in these matters and to search them out for yourself and not just adopt the many erroneous teachings that are out there.
 

Wall

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2013
1,417
154
63
#96
By the way, if you are going to try to insinuate that the New Jerusalem is the wife of the Lamb, you would be wrong also. It is in reference to those who will occupy the city and not the city itself. If we use our heads here, Christ did not shed His blood for a city, but for those who will occupy it.
In no way did i insinuate that the new Jerusalem is the wife or the bride. Its the 12 tribes of the children of Israel just as scripture states
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,375
113
#97
Yes it’s very important to pay attention to scripture do you have any that support your interpretations there ? I’m sure open to the scripture but I don’t think it actually supports your theory . But I’m open to those scriptures I need to pay attention to so I’ll wait for your response so I can pay attention to those scriptures . Would love to see what you are saying in those scriptures your going to provide

the people from all nations got there by doing this
The entire previous post supports what I was proclaiming. Did you read it? I have posted below the information that I previously listed to support my claim:

===========================================================================
The saints that the beast is given authority to mark war against and to conquer, are the great tribulation saints and not the church. This is the group which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language (Gentiles), who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17. These are those who will become believers in Christ after the church has been gathered off the earth.

The very fact that the elder is asking John who this group is and where they came from, tells us that this is not the church but another group. In addition, John says that he doesn't know who they are and this in light of the fact that he was previously asked to write letters to the seven churches.

If you will notice, the word ekklesia/church is used 19 time throughout chapters 1 thru 3. Then after that, the word changes to hagios translated as saints. No where in chapters 1 thru 3 are the words church and saints used interchangeably. The next time we see the church, she is designated as 'the bride' in Rev.19:6-8 at the wedding of the Lamb. The next time that the word church is used again, is in Rev.22:16.

Jesus took upon himself God's wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. Because of this, believers cannot and will not be on the earth to experience God's wrath. Also, God does not punish the righteous with the wicked.

There is a huge difference between the trials and tribulation that Jesus said we would have because of our faith in Him vs. God's unprecedented wrath. Believers are not appointed to suffer the later.

The church will be gathered prior to the opening of the first seal which initiates God's wrath.
===========================================================================

It is a matter of utilizing all related scriptures and paying attention to the clues that God has left in His word.

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s the only way people from all nations can enter into the kingdom . By doing this

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬


That’s those folks from all nations tongues and people before the throne the church , or “ body of Christ”
all it really is brother is a vision showing the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham

“And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭26:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬
What you are doing is pigeonholing those words. After the church has been gathered, there will still be people from every nation, tribe, people and languages on the earth.

Previously, John was told to write letters to the seven churches. Then in Rev.7:9-17 John sees a group which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language. The elder asks John who they are, which would demonstrate that they are not the church. In further support of this, John says that he doesn't know who this group is. You will also notice that this group is never referred to as the church, but as the saints who come out of the great tribulation.

This group is mentioned after the seals have been opened which would be within the the tribulation period, the time of God's wrath. As I have said so many times, the church is not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, because Jesus already experienced it on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely. That group which no man can count, will be on the earth during that time because they will have not been believers prior to the gathering of the church, which is why they will be exposed to everything that will be taking place on the earth. This is also why Jesus and the apostles continually warn believers to be watching and ready for the Lord's appearing, so that day of God's wrath does not close on us like a trap.

Revelation 4:1 is a prophetic allusion to where the church is gathered, which takes place prior to chapter 6 where the seals are opened. Jesus is that voice that sounds like a trumpet saying "come up here." It is after this that we no longer see the word church used. Yet in chapters 1 thru 3 the word 'church' is used 19 times. The word church is never used within the narrative of God's wrath. It is the word 'saints' that is used, which is referring to the great tribulation saints.

the 144000 that are shown before this great multitude from all nations , they are those of the ot only from the tribes of Israel. The gentiles are the great multitude from all Nations. Because it shows both groups is showing this
In Revelation 7, we have to new groups introduced:

1). The 144,000 from each of the twelve tribes, 12,000 from each tribe. These are Israelites who will recognize Jesus as their Messiah.

2). A great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, which would make them Gentiles

The 144,000 are all Israelites from each tribe, who in opposition of the unbelieving nation of Israel, will recognize Jesus as their Messiah.

The woman of Revelation 12 who is clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars is symbolically representing the unbelieving nation of Israel. We know this, because in Genesis 37:9-10, Joseph's dream uses the same symbols of the sun, moon and stars which symbolically represent Jacob, his wife/wives and his sons.

The woman/Israel gives birth to a male child which is a collective name for the 144,000 who come out of unbelieving Israel, ergo, gives birth to.

The next group which are those which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and nation, is that group of Gentiles who will become believers after the church has been gathered, who are identified as those saints who come out of the great tribulation. Again, this group cannot be the church, because the current believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.

So, your major error in all of this, is not taking into consideration that the church cannot be present on the earth during the time of God's wrath. Since Jesus has already satisfied God's wrath, then said wrath no longer rests upon the believer, which means that we cannot be exposed to it. Anyone who claims that the church will be on the earth during the time of God's wrath, is truly not believing that Jesus already experienced God's wrath on our behalf.

"Surely He took on our infirmities and carried our sorrows; yet we considered Him stricken by God, struck down and afflicted.

But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him,

and by His stripes we are healed."
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,375
113
#98
In no way did i insinuate that the new Jerusalem is the wife or the bride. Its the 12 tribes of the children of Israel just as scripture states
And I also showed you that the names of twelve apostles who represent the church, are also written on the twelve foundations of the city.

Israel was already wife back in the OT. While the church is currently still betrothed as the bride.

Once the Lord appears and the church is gathered and taken back to the Father's house, then the wedding of the Lamb will take place. After the wedding, then the church will be the wife of the Lamb.

The nation Israel and the church have different programs. During that last seven years the nation Israel will be present on the earth, where the church will have been previously gathered and taken to heaven.
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
1,629
490
83
69
#99
OK

JOHN 3 [12] If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? [13] And NO MAN HATH ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN, BUT HE THAT CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, even the Son of man which is in heaven

Will scripture above suddenly vanish from your bibles after you are raptured to heaven
The idea being expressed in John 3:13, And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven; Is that no man has ascended into heaven and returned to the earth. Certainly Enoch was the first human to be taken up into heaven alive. Shortly after Enoch was found no more, the judgement of the world came upon evil men. Enoch being removed before the flood also proves that the assembly of believers will be removed before the Great Tribulation and final judgement.

Another interesting thought to consider: While Jesus was in His earthly ministry, Scripture says He often looked up to the heavens and prayed. Since the earth rotates on it's axes, where exactly, in what direction is heaven? The Lord would have been looking in many different directions.
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
1,629
490
83
69
Hello Wall!

This scripture is not supporting your claim. Israel is the wife of God, i.e. already married. While the church is the bride of Christ, which is in the betrothal state. It is not until the church is resurrected and the living are changed and caught up and taken to the Father's house, that the wedding of the Lamb will take place, which is revealed in Rev.19:6-8, where the bride receives her fine linen, white and clean. Then in Rev.19:14, the bride, now the wife, are shown following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing her same fine linen that she will have received at the wedding.

It is just a simple matter of understanding of the difference between the meaning of wife and bride. Israel is the wife of God, while the church is still in her betrothal state as a bride. Sometime soon, the bridegroom will come back for His bride and will take her to the Father's house where the wedding will take place.



In the verse above you are claiming two different phases of the marriage process. Since Israel is already married, then she cannot be a bride.

Therefore, Israel is already married, but the church is still in her betrothal state, as the bride.

LUKE 17 [33] Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. [34] I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER SHALL BE LEFT. [35] Two women shall be grinding together; THE ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT. [36] Two men shall be in the field; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT.
First of all, in the above scripture the "one taken" group is not referring to the church being caught up. Those who are taken are being compared to those who were taken away in the flood, i.e. the wicked. So the comparison is wicked to wicked. Those being taken will be the wicked who will have made it alive through the tribulation and are those whom the angels will gather and who will be taken to be killed by that double-edged sword which proceeds from the mouth of the Lord. And then the birds will gorge themselves on their flesh. - (Rev.19:17-18, 21)[/QUOTE]

Well stated sir.... Israel is always seen as the "wife" of God and never a "bride". Another way to look at it would be, The Covenant Lord of Israel has a wife and the Son of man will soon take one. A love gift from His Father.

Many it seems mistaken Luke 17:35&36 and some sort of "rapture verses" but the ones being taken are taken for judgement. The ones left behind, will enter into the millennial Kingdom.

Keep up the good work.