The Pre-Tribulation Rapture: The Blessed Hope of the Saints
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The fact there are saints in heaven with the innumerable number,and rev 19,plus the firstfruits that walked in jerusalem after Jesus's resurrection,and the gathering of ripe fruit to heaven in rev 14. (Which is a gathering of living making "dead in Christ "pretrib automatically)
Then you have all the raptured ones framed in a setting other than you theory of a rapture in a war zone with billions of saints dead from beheading and a destroyed planet.
Then you have the 2 escape verses, and, in mat 25 Jesus goes IMMEDIATELY TO THE WEDDING CHAMBER. (which destroys postrib rapture all by itself...as you need the bride to mount horses for war.)
(Which btw, directly would destroy the Angel's declaration "Jesus will come in like manner.....psst none of the rapture verses have horses, or warzones,or a uturn in the sky)
Then we have lot and Noah that your theory needs to be rescued from sodoms destroyed ruins,and noah taken up AFTER THE FLOOD.
....You need all that to somehow vanish.
....SO..you guys produce one "smoking gun" after another...not proving a thing,but in your minds think you have the bride killed and whipped into worthyness,then rescued to ride horses back to earth.
Jesus words so destroy every one of your components.
Then you have all the raptured ones framed in a setting other than you theory of a rapture in a war zone with billions of saints dead from beheading and a destroyed planet.
Then you have the 2 escape verses, and, in mat 25 Jesus goes IMMEDIATELY TO THE WEDDING CHAMBER. (which destroys postrib rapture all by itself...as you need the bride to mount horses for war.)
(Which btw, directly would destroy the Angel's declaration "Jesus will come in like manner.....psst none of the rapture verses have horses, or warzones,or a uturn in the sky)
Then we have lot and Noah that your theory needs to be rescued from sodoms destroyed ruins,and noah taken up AFTER THE FLOOD.
....You need all that to somehow vanish.
....SO..you guys produce one "smoking gun" after another...not proving a thing,but in your minds think you have the bride killed and whipped into worthyness,then rescued to ride horses back to earth.
Jesus words so destroy every one of your components.
1 COR. 15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall ALL BE CHANGED, [52] IN A MOMENT, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and THE DEAD SHALL BE RAISED incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
There are only 2 general resurrections left to come. Scripture above points out the 1st resurrection. That happens in a single moment at the last trump. Certainly not drawn out over many years!
REV. 20 [4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and i saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. [6] BLESSED AND HOLY IS HE THAT HATH PART IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION: ON SUCH THE SECOND DEATH HATH NO POWER, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
After the 1st resurrection we are to be with Christ for the 1000 yr period of rest
REVELATION 20[11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. [12] AND I SAW THE DEAD, SMALL AND GREAT, STAND BEFORE GOD; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [13] AND THE SEA GAVE UP THE DEAD which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. [14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH.
Heres the 2nd resurrection. At the great white throne. The 2nd death {Rev.20v6}. This to happens at a certain point of time. Certainly not drawn out over a long period of time!
PSALM 119 [126] It is TIME FOR THEE, LORD, TO WORK: for they have made void thy law. [127] There-fore I love thy commandments above gold; yea, above fine gold. [128] Therefore I esteem all thy precepts con-cerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.
ROMANS 9 [28] For HE WILL FINISH THE WORK, and cut it short in righteousness: because A SHORT WORK will the Lord make upon the earth.
Itll be quick!
There are only 2 general resurrections left to come. Scripture above points out the 1st resurrection. That happens in a single moment at the last trump. Certainly not drawn out over many years!
REV. 20 [4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and i saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. [6] BLESSED AND HOLY IS HE THAT HATH PART IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION: ON SUCH THE SECOND DEATH HATH NO POWER, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
After the 1st resurrection we are to be with Christ for the 1000 yr period of rest
REVELATION 20[11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. [12] AND I SAW THE DEAD, SMALL AND GREAT, STAND BEFORE GOD; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [13] AND THE SEA GAVE UP THE DEAD which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. [14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH.
Heres the 2nd resurrection. At the great white throne. The 2nd death {Rev.20v6}. This to happens at a certain point of time. Certainly not drawn out over a long period of time!
PSALM 119 [126] It is TIME FOR THEE, LORD, TO WORK: for they have made void thy law. [127] There-fore I love thy commandments above gold; yea, above fine gold. [128] Therefore I esteem all thy precepts con-cerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.
ROMANS 9 [28] For HE WILL FINISH THE WORK, and cut it short in righteousness: because A SHORT WORK will the Lord make upon the earth.
Itll be quick!
You claim Ezek. 37 is all about Israel becoming a nation in 1948. Nope! Unless you believe the great tribulation is over
EZEK.37 [9] Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the FOUR WINDS, O breath, and BREATHE UPON THESE SLAIN, THAT THEY MAY LIVE.[10] So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, AN EXCEEDING GREAT ARMY.[11] Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.[12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, AND BRING YOU INTO THE LAND OF ISRAEL.[13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,[14] And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
PROPHECY OF THE FOUR WINDS! Found in Ezek.37
MATT.24 [29] IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and they SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from one end of heaven to the other.
PROPHECY OF THE FOUR WINDS! Found in Matt.24. It happens right after the tribulation period. Please dont try and tell me the Great Tribulation is over.
EZEK.37 [9] Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the FOUR WINDS, O breath, and BREATHE UPON THESE SLAIN, THAT THEY MAY LIVE.[10] So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, AN EXCEEDING GREAT ARMY.[11] Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.[12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, AND BRING YOU INTO THE LAND OF ISRAEL.[13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,[14] And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
PROPHECY OF THE FOUR WINDS! Found in Ezek.37
MATT.24 [29] IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and they SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from one end of heaven to the other.
PROPHECY OF THE FOUR WINDS! Found in Matt.24. It happens right after the tribulation period. Please dont try and tell me the Great Tribulation is over.
the tribulation is something saints have to go through It is the time period after christs ascension to the throne .
“And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:
and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
If any man have an ear, let him hear.”
Revelation 13:7-9 KJV
see where he has been given power over all nations and power to overcome the saints ? This occurred after Christ was seated and Satan was cast out of heaven he turned his fury on the church
“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
Revelation 12:17 KJV
that’s not a future event it was already true
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”
Ephesians 6:12 KJV
“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:”
1 Peter 5:8
so you have this world which Satan has his kingdom a temporary dominion
“Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.”
1 John 2:15-16
Satans goal is to do this
“In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”
2 Corinthians 4:4 KJV
because he understands the truth
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16
There is only one day when Christ returns from heaven and that day is when he will father his elect who are still on earth not beforehand but at the end
“And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
Matthew 24:30-31 KJV
that’s just one sudden day like it was in Noah’s day everything seemed normal and then came the sudden flood that’s what the end will be like . Truthfully already the world is in total chaos if you look at what God designed and made the earth to be , and consider where it now is
We aren’t supposed to have terrible diseases , we aren’t supposed to have funerals , we aren’t supposed to hope to love for a hundred years , we aren’t supposed to murder, rape, abuse , commit every evil even inventing new evils but if you look at the world as a whole it happens every moment everything God said is death is daily occurrence in the world
It’s just a one time event
“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;
and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”
Hebrews 9:27-28
There will still be living Christians on earth when Jesus returns
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
That’s the last day when he comes the same day we’ll all be gathered even those still living on earth
the tribulation is now and we have the gospel to believe and be saved
“And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:
and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
If any man have an ear, let him hear.”
Revelation 13:7-9 KJV
see where he has been given power over all nations and power to overcome the saints ? This occurred after Christ was seated and Satan was cast out of heaven he turned his fury on the church
“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
Revelation 12:17 KJV
that’s not a future event it was already true
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”
Ephesians 6:12 KJV
“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:”
1 Peter 5:8
so you have this world which Satan has his kingdom a temporary dominion
“Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.”
1 John 2:15-16
Satans goal is to do this
“In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”
2 Corinthians 4:4 KJV
because he understands the truth
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16
There is only one day when Christ returns from heaven and that day is when he will father his elect who are still on earth not beforehand but at the end
“And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
Matthew 24:30-31 KJV
that’s just one sudden day like it was in Noah’s day everything seemed normal and then came the sudden flood that’s what the end will be like . Truthfully already the world is in total chaos if you look at what God designed and made the earth to be , and consider where it now is
We aren’t supposed to have terrible diseases , we aren’t supposed to have funerals , we aren’t supposed to hope to love for a hundred years , we aren’t supposed to murder, rape, abuse , commit every evil even inventing new evils but if you look at the world as a whole it happens every moment everything God said is death is daily occurrence in the world
It’s just a one time event
“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;
and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”
Hebrews 9:27-28
There will still be living Christians on earth when Jesus returns
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
That’s the last day when he comes the same day we’ll all be gathered even those still living on earth
the tribulation is now and we have the gospel to believe and be saved
Greetings Pilgrimshope!
It is always important to pay attention to the details of scripture, especially in the book of Revelation.
The saints that the beast is given authority to mark war against and to conquer, are the great tribulation saints and not the church. This is the group which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language (Gentiles), who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17. These are those who will become believers in Christ after the church has been gathered off the earth.
The very fact that the elder is asking John who this group is and where they came from, tells us that this is not the church but another group. In addition, John says that he doesn't know who they are and this in light of the fact that he was previously asked to write letters to the seven churches.
If you will notice, the word ekklesia/church is used 19 time throughout chapters 1 thru 3. Then after that, the word changes to hagios translated as saints. No where in chapters 1 thru 3 are the words church and saints used interchangeably. The next time we see the church, she is designated as 'the bride' in Rev.19:6-8 at the wedding of the Lamb. The next time that the word church is used again, is in Rev.22:16.
Jesus took upon himself God's wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. Because of this, believers cannot and will not be on the earth to experience God's wrath. Also, God does not punish the righteous with the wicked.
There is a huge difference between the trials and tribulation that Jesus said we would have because of our faith in Him vs. God's unprecedented wrath. Believers are not appointed to suffer the later.
The church will be gathered prior to the opening of the first seal which initiates God's wrath
I hope they read carefully verse 11:
"Then He said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Look, they are saying, ‘Our bones are dried up, and our hope has perished; we are cut off.’ "
....and then compare also verses 21-23 "you are to tell them that this is what the Lord GOD says: ‘I will take the Israelites out of the nations to which they have gone [elsewhere expressed as "SOW [sown]... in the earth"... i.e. the graveyard of NATIONS, where SCATTERED], and I will gather them from all around and bring them into their own land. [...] and I will cleanse them. Then they will be My people, and I will be their God." [note Romans 9:26 (as DISTINCT FROM 9:25 about the GENTILES), where v.26 is speaking of ISRAEL--"And it shall come to pass, that in the place WHERE IT WAS SAID UNTO THEM [was said unto ISRAEL], Ye are NOT MY PEOPLE [lo ammi], there SHALL they be called the children/sons of the living God."... then read again Rom11:15(25-29 re: Israel's FUTURE), where v.15 LIKENS this UNTO a resurrection]
...and then compare also vv.14 and 21-23 where these both say "I shall place you in your own land / and bring them into their own land"... but see how alongside those words in v.14 is added the phrase "And shall put My Spirit in you, and ye shall live [same word H2421 as found in the parallel idea in Hosea 5:14-6:3, esp v.2 (2x):
Hosea 6:2 [H2421 in bold]
HEB: יְחַיֵּ֖נוּ מִיֹּמָ֑יִם בַּיּוֹם֙
NAS: He will revive us after two days;
KJV: After two days will he revive us: in the third
INT: will revive days day
Hosea 6:2 [H2421 in bold]
HEB: הַשְּׁלִישִׁ֔י יְקִמֵ֖נוּ וְנִחְיֶ֥ה לְפָנָֽיו׃
NAS: day, That we may live before
KJV: he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
INT: the third will raise may live before
[noting that vv.14-15 are speaking of the time-slot of His death/Cross/resurrection/ascension/exaltation, so "after two days" FROM THEN (not 2 "24-hr days," mind you)... and v.15 saying, "IN THEIR AFFLICTION, they WILL seek Me early!!" So, YES, the CONTEXT *IS* the [future] trib years (which is one of its main PURPOSES... for Israel [to come to faith in their Messiah!]), and the commencement of the earthly MK age following that]
"Then He said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Look, they are saying, ‘Our bones are dried up, and our hope has perished; we are cut off.’ "
....and then compare also verses 21-23 "you are to tell them that this is what the Lord GOD says: ‘I will take the Israelites out of the nations to which they have gone [elsewhere expressed as "SOW [sown]... in the earth"... i.e. the graveyard of NATIONS, where SCATTERED], and I will gather them from all around and bring them into their own land. [...] and I will cleanse them. Then they will be My people, and I will be their God." [note Romans 9:26 (as DISTINCT FROM 9:25 about the GENTILES), where v.26 is speaking of ISRAEL--"And it shall come to pass, that in the place WHERE IT WAS SAID UNTO THEM [was said unto ISRAEL], Ye are NOT MY PEOPLE [lo ammi], there SHALL they be called the children/sons of the living God."... then read again Rom11:15(25-29 re: Israel's FUTURE), where v.15 LIKENS this UNTO a resurrection]
...and then compare also vv.14 and 21-23 where these both say "I shall place you in your own land / and bring them into their own land"... but see how alongside those words in v.14 is added the phrase "And shall put My Spirit in you, and ye shall live [same word H2421 as found in the parallel idea in Hosea 5:14-6:3, esp v.2 (2x):
Hosea 6:2 [H2421 in bold]
HEB: יְחַיֵּ֖נוּ מִיֹּמָ֑יִם בַּיּוֹם֙
NAS: He will revive us after two days;
KJV: After two days will he revive us: in the third
INT: will revive days day
Hosea 6:2 [H2421 in bold]
HEB: הַשְּׁלִישִׁ֔י יְקִמֵ֖נוּ וְנִחְיֶ֥ה לְפָנָֽיו׃
NAS: day, That we may live before
KJV: he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
INT: the third will raise may live before
[noting that vv.14-15 are speaking of the time-slot of His death/Cross/resurrection/ascension/exaltation, so "after two days" FROM THEN (not 2 "24-hr days," mind you)... and v.15 saying, "IN THEIR AFFLICTION, they WILL seek Me early!!" So, YES, the CONTEXT *IS* the [future] trib years (which is one of its main PURPOSES... for Israel [to come to faith in their Messiah!]), and the commencement of the earthly MK age following that]
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To go along with my Post #76 ^ :
[quoting my past posts on this]
I'm looking for a different quote by George V Wigram... but (in the meantime) in its place, I'll just post this brief portion also by him (note the phrase "God's governmental ways on earth," which is what I believe Roman's 11's "olive tree" represents):
[quoting Wigram]
"Gen. 27:29 [Isaac blessing Jacob]. Let peoples (gamnzim, pl.), serve thee and [manners or sorts of ] nations (l'ummim, pl.) bow down to thee: be lord [a mighty man] over thy brethren.
"Observe, this would not run the source of the division of people back to Shem, Ham and Japhet, so as to make the word to be equivalent to what we call the races of people, in connection with the Noahic earth, who constitute the whole human family. The subdivision here alluded to took place in the family of Isaac, type of the heir of promise, not earlier; and the heads of this subdivision are brought before us in Rom. 9 All God's ways and subdivisions are to be noted."
[also]
"f Israel is the goh'y of experience, promise, blessing on the earth; the center of all God's governmental ways on earth; but in saying that, I look at them from outside and as one whole. When they are owned as gammi, my people, their detailed state and associations within is the aspect in which they are considered."
--George V Wigram
http://bibletruthpublishers.com/heb...t-testimony-psalms-article/g-v-wigram/la61041
____________
[quoting that other article by Wigram]
"[re: Romans 11] In Jesus Christ, if the question be about Christian position, eternal life, or the Church considered in her essential relationship to Christ, there was neither Jew nor Gentile; the thoughts found in this chapter [Romans 11] can THERE have no place. If the question be about the cutting off of an individual for sinful conduct, little matters it whether he be Jew or Gentile; that has nothing to do with it, and on the other hand, there would be no question about grafting in again of the Jews more than of any others, and neither Jews nor others could be grafted in, if God had cut them off in such a manner. And if it were a question about a warning from the Apostle to Christians at Rome, and so to others elsewhere, as being brethren, it would be almost nonsense to say, " And thou, O Gentile, take heed!" Why, thou, O Gentile? Had not Christians, Jews by birth, as much need to take heed? Or could the Spirit of God, in such a warning, have made the distinction, and thus denied the principle of, the Church of God in which there is neither Jew nor Gentile? If the question is about a divine administration upon earth, then God can well make the distinction and develop his ways towards the one and the other; and it is plain that from the commencement of the ninth chapter the Apostle is occupied with and pointedly contrasts the Jews and the Gentiles, presenting us with the administration of the divine ways upon the earth. First declaring his attachment to Israel, he points out an election in the election for the earth, and further, that if God according to his sovereignty had chosen Israel (and such was Israel's boast), He had not renounced His sovereignty; and consequently, He could call the Gentiles if he would. Then he recalls to mind that the prophets had shown that a little remnant only, of Israel, at such an epoch, would be saved, and that a stone of stumbling would be laid in Zion."
-- Thoughts on Romans 11 and the Responsibility of the Church, Present Testimony: Volume 4 George V. Wigram
http://bibletruthpublishers.com/tho...the-church/present-testimony-volume-4/la85282
[end quoting; bold and underline mine; parenthesis original]
[end quoting past posts]
____________
Many do not grasp what Rom9-11 is covering...
[quoting my past posts on this]
I'm looking for a different quote by George V Wigram... but (in the meantime) in its place, I'll just post this brief portion also by him (note the phrase "God's governmental ways on earth," which is what I believe Roman's 11's "olive tree" represents):
[quoting Wigram]
"Gen. 27:29 [Isaac blessing Jacob]. Let peoples (gamnzim, pl.), serve thee and [manners or sorts of ] nations (l'ummim, pl.) bow down to thee: be lord [a mighty man] over thy brethren.
"Observe, this would not run the source of the division of people back to Shem, Ham and Japhet, so as to make the word to be equivalent to what we call the races of people, in connection with the Noahic earth, who constitute the whole human family. The subdivision here alluded to took place in the family of Isaac, type of the heir of promise, not earlier; and the heads of this subdivision are brought before us in Rom. 9 All God's ways and subdivisions are to be noted."
[also]
"f Israel is the goh'y of experience, promise, blessing on the earth; the center of all God's governmental ways on earth; but in saying that, I look at them from outside and as one whole. When they are owned as gammi, my people, their detailed state and associations within is the aspect in which they are considered."
--George V Wigram
http://bibletruthpublishers.com/heb...t-testimony-psalms-article/g-v-wigram/la61041
____________
[quoting that other article by Wigram]
"[re: Romans 11] In Jesus Christ, if the question be about Christian position, eternal life, or the Church considered in her essential relationship to Christ, there was neither Jew nor Gentile; the thoughts found in this chapter [Romans 11] can THERE have no place. If the question be about the cutting off of an individual for sinful conduct, little matters it whether he be Jew or Gentile; that has nothing to do with it, and on the other hand, there would be no question about grafting in again of the Jews more than of any others, and neither Jews nor others could be grafted in, if God had cut them off in such a manner. And if it were a question about a warning from the Apostle to Christians at Rome, and so to others elsewhere, as being brethren, it would be almost nonsense to say, " And thou, O Gentile, take heed!" Why, thou, O Gentile? Had not Christians, Jews by birth, as much need to take heed? Or could the Spirit of God, in such a warning, have made the distinction, and thus denied the principle of, the Church of God in which there is neither Jew nor Gentile? If the question is about a divine administration upon earth, then God can well make the distinction and develop his ways towards the one and the other; and it is plain that from the commencement of the ninth chapter the Apostle is occupied with and pointedly contrasts the Jews and the Gentiles, presenting us with the administration of the divine ways upon the earth. First declaring his attachment to Israel, he points out an election in the election for the earth, and further, that if God according to his sovereignty had chosen Israel (and such was Israel's boast), He had not renounced His sovereignty; and consequently, He could call the Gentiles if he would. Then he recalls to mind that the prophets had shown that a little remnant only, of Israel, at such an epoch, would be saved, and that a stone of stumbling would be laid in Zion."
-- Thoughts on Romans 11 and the Responsibility of the Church, Present Testimony: Volume 4 George V. Wigram
http://bibletruthpublishers.com/tho...the-church/present-testimony-volume-4/la85282
[end quoting; bold and underline mine; parenthesis original]
[end quoting past posts]
____________
Many do not grasp what Rom9-11 is covering...
Not sure what your trying to say but the church is the saints
1 CORINTHIANS 1 [2] Unto the CHURCH OF GOD WHICH IS AT CORINTH, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, CALLED TO BE SAINTS, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
Church of the Corinthians that are called to be Saints
ROMANS 1 [7] To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, CALLED TO BE SAINTS: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Church of the Romans that are called to be Saints
EPHESIANS 1 [1] Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, TO THE SAINTS WHICH ARE AT EPHESUS, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
And again, the Ephesians are the Saints of God
COLOSSIANS 1 [1] Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother, [2] TO THE SAINTS and faithful brethren in Christ WHICH ARE AT COLOSSE: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
The church of Colossians are the Saints
REVELATION 14 [11] And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. [12] HERE IS THE PATIENCE OF THE SAINTS: HERE ARE THEY THAT KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, AND THE FAITH OF JESUS.
1 CORINTHIANS 1 [2] Unto the CHURCH OF GOD WHICH IS AT CORINTH, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, CALLED TO BE SAINTS, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
Church of the Corinthians that are called to be Saints
ROMANS 1 [7] To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, CALLED TO BE SAINTS: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Church of the Romans that are called to be Saints
EPHESIANS 1 [1] Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, TO THE SAINTS WHICH ARE AT EPHESUS, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
And again, the Ephesians are the Saints of God
COLOSSIANS 1 [1] Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother, [2] TO THE SAINTS and faithful brethren in Christ WHICH ARE AT COLOSSE: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
The church of Colossians are the Saints
REVELATION 14 [11] And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. [12] HERE IS THE PATIENCE OF THE SAINTS: HERE ARE THEY THAT KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, AND THE FAITH OF JESUS.
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"saints"... but "saints" coming to faith at entirely distinct time-periods.
For example,
Rev5:9 is ppl in Heaven BEFORE Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13, Rev5:6, [2Th2:7b-8a/Lam2:3-4]) by opening the FIRST SEAL - "and they sing a new song, saying, 'Worthy art thou to take the scroll, and to open the seals of it, because thou wast slain, and didst redeem us to God in thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,"
...yet there are those who come to faith FOLLOWING that point in time (i.e. IN/DURING/WITHIN the trib yrs) who are also "saints"... but since they've come to faith FOLLOWING our Rapture, they do not participate in said Rapture, see. The "Rapture" event pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (i.e. ALL "saints"/saved persons "in this present age [singular]" - Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]).
Those who come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (that is, IN/DURING/WITHIN the TRIB yrs) are indeed "saints," but are never referred to as: "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (note the distinction between: "the Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" and the "guests [PLURAL]" and the "10 [or 5] VirginS/BridesmaidS [PLURAL]" etc... not to mention the distinction between the "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" and "the FRIEND of the Bridegroom" who ALSO is NOT "the BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]" yet IS a "saved person [/SAINT]"
). It is a matter of CHRONOLOGY/TIMING... the "WHEN" of things.
[note where I've put in past posts: the correlation between the description of the "4 living creatures" with "the four-directional plotment of Israel" in the OT times]
For example,
Rev5:9 is ppl in Heaven BEFORE Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13, Rev5:6, [2Th2:7b-8a/Lam2:3-4]) by opening the FIRST SEAL - "and they sing a new song, saying, 'Worthy art thou to take the scroll, and to open the seals of it, because thou wast slain, and didst redeem us to God in thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,"
...yet there are those who come to faith FOLLOWING that point in time (i.e. IN/DURING/WITHIN the trib yrs) who are also "saints"... but since they've come to faith FOLLOWING our Rapture, they do not participate in said Rapture, see. The "Rapture" event pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (i.e. ALL "saints"/saved persons "in this present age [singular]" - Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]).
Those who come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (that is, IN/DURING/WITHIN the TRIB yrs) are indeed "saints," but are never referred to as: "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (note the distinction between: "the Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" and the "guests [PLURAL]" and the "10 [or 5] VirginS/BridesmaidS [PLURAL]" etc... not to mention the distinction between the "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" and "the FRIEND of the Bridegroom" who ALSO is NOT "the BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]" yet IS a "saved person [/SAINT]"
). It is a matter of CHRONOLOGY/TIMING... the "WHEN" of things.[note where I've put in past posts: the correlation between the description of the "4 living creatures" with "the four-directional plotment of Israel" in the OT times]
"saints"... but "saints" coming to faith at entirely distinct time-periods.
For example,
Rev5:9 is ppl in Heaven BEFORE Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13, Rev5:6, [2Th2:7b-8a/Lam2:3-4]) by opening the FIRST SEAL - "and they sing a new song, saying, 'Worthy art thou to take the scroll, and to open the seals of it, because thou wast slain, and didst redeem us to God in thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,"
...yet there are those who come to faith FOLLOWING that point in time (i.e. IN/DURING/WITHIN the trib yrs) who are also "saints"... but since they've come to faith FOLLOWING our Rapture, they do not participate in said Rapture, see. The "Rapture" event pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (i.e. ALL "saints"/saved persons "in this present age [singular]" - Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]).
Those who come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (that is, IN/DURING/WITHIN the TRIB yrs) are indeed "saints," but are never referred to as: "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (note the distinction between: "the Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" and the "guests [PLURAL]" and the "10 [or 5] VirginS/BridesmaidS [PLURAL]" etc... not to mention the distinction between the "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" and "the FRIEND of the Bridegroom" who ALSO is NOT "the BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]" yet IS a "saved person [/SAINT]" ). It is a matter of CHRONOLOGY/TIMING... the "WHEN" of things.
For example,
Rev5:9 is ppl in Heaven BEFORE Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13, Rev5:6, [2Th2:7b-8a/Lam2:3-4]) by opening the FIRST SEAL - "and they sing a new song, saying, 'Worthy art thou to take the scroll, and to open the seals of it, because thou wast slain, and didst redeem us to God in thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,"
...yet there are those who come to faith FOLLOWING that point in time (i.e. IN/DURING/WITHIN the trib yrs) who are also "saints"... but since they've come to faith FOLLOWING our Rapture, they do not participate in said Rapture, see. The "Rapture" event pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (i.e. ALL "saints"/saved persons "in this present age [singular]" - Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]).
Those who come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (that is, IN/DURING/WITHIN the TRIB yrs) are indeed "saints," but are never referred to as: "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (note the distinction between: "the Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" and the "guests [PLURAL]" and the "10 [or 5] VirginS/BridesmaidS [PLURAL]" etc... not to mention the distinction between the "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" and "the FRIEND of the Bridegroom" who ALSO is NOT "the BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]" yet IS a "saved person [/SAINT]"
). It is a matter of CHRONOLOGY/TIMING... the "WHEN" of things.