The dreaded doctrine of election and perseverance.

I think we have established in one of your many anti calvinist threads that your view of election is flawed.

I think we have established in one of your many anti calvinist threads that your view of election is flawed.

Maybe it would help you understand if you had the correct meaning of Perseverance.
It does not mean I persevere it means God perseveres......it is He who keeps that which entrusted to Him (eternal security)
....for I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that He is able to protect what I have entrusted to Him until that day
2Tim 1:12

I know the TULIP is misinterpreted by many, I see these new definitions in the forums. I think maybe the acronym TULIP causes more misunderstanding than it helps others to know our doctrines.

I suggest if you want the correct definitions you can go to the Reformed websights for correct definitions. You may not agree but at least you will have the right information. I doubt if anyone would disagree with the 5 Solas.

I'm not even sure how these doctrines of grace became known as 'calvinism' except that it is widely accepted. I'm not sure what Wycliffe, Tyndale and Zwingli called themselves........Reformers I guess, since they were of that group.

Calvinists and Baptists are not so very far apart on our basic beliefs that Reformed theology should brings out such hatred for fellow heirs. "Calvinism" is not the reason for lack of growth, the real reason is lack of interest of pew sitters. They walk an aisle, join a church, "listen" to a sermon and know at least 3 verses of scripture.....John 3:16 for sure.

If you want to know our statement of faith read the Westminster Confession.
It is insulting to have people outside of calvinism telling me what I believe......and usually at least 75% wrong. sometimes 100%

Like wise no calvinist should label someone an arminian. Not all non-cals are of that theology which says you can lose your salvation. Methodists and other laws keeping groups have that sad theology.

The more correct word for folks with a more baptist background would be Amyraldian, a term from Moses Amyrald who defined a statement of faith for groups in that view.

You cannot vanquish a Calvinist
You may think you can, but you cannot. The stones of the great doctrines so fit into each other that the more pressure there is applied to remove them, the more strenuously do they adhere. (Spurgeon)

I totally agree with Spurgeon . The doctrines of Calvinism are completely supported by each. As a system its unfalsafiable thats its brilliance. The bible however .

Why would you compare the two ?

both are new births...... birth one/physical, birth two/spiritual So cute.

Then I totally do not understand the purpose of your original post.
I don't ever post pictures....ever...until now......just too cute to resist.
for smiles

You must have missed the point i made . Spurgeon is right about Calvinism. But I'm maintaining Calvinism is not biblical . Therefore Although Spurgeon is right about the system being completely cohesive and brilliantly unfasifiable ,doesn't change the fact that its not biblical.

both are new births...... birth one/physical, birth two/spiritual So cute.

both are new births...... birth one/physical, birth two/spiritual So cute.

of couse its biblical, but it cannot be dissedted in one big bite.....it has to be understood (by scripture) one bite at a time.

I agree it takes time and study . Usually Christians pick it up in seminary unwittingly at the start but by the end of the course they are sold . You have to learn it first then you go looking in the bible to confirm its validity.

This may sound like an unusual topic . But its my contention that the Doctrines of Election and Perseverence are the most damaging to the believer.
The reason for this is ultimately you cannot know the certainty of your election unless your perseverance is in keeping with your election and where it ought to be . This leads to the most crippling and paralysing thoughts that a believer can engage in . This for me is why Calvinsm has to be seriously questioned . This system is responsible for lack of growth within the body and lack of assurance and security leading to legalism and in all intentions and purposes a ' practical ' works based religion that has managed to claim itself as ' Christian ' . The Natural consequences of the System leads to ' Lordship salvation ' ,sold as a good thing and backed by virtue signalling and piety . Now I never argue against Calvinsm based on the philosophical arguments like ' fairness ' , freewill ect . But on this topic of Election and Perseverance this is where we get to the consequences of believing such doctrines.
I do hold to Eternal security, but nothing in the way of Lordship salvation.
This is a tough topic to wade through as there is a great deal of baggage and presuppositions abound in this area .
But what say you ?

Have you read Calvin's "Institutes of the Christian Religion?"

You can get it on Audible.com and listen to it while on the tread mill or raking leaves this fall. 67 hours of pure joy
Narrated by Bob Souer

so how did you learn what you believe?
Did you learn this in seminary? Did you pick up your doctrine unwittingly? as in were you brainwashed so that you didn't realize what you were being taught until you had it all wrong??? how sad.

I, on the other hand, was grounded in my basics in a conservative Baptist church.
The first time I heard someone mention TULIP I asked what that was about.......they told me, from T to P.
I already believed those things because my bible said so. I didn't even know it was called "calvinism".
After that my bible studies were with eyes wide open........looking at the scritpure with God's sovereignty being foremost.
That took away what confusion I had on some verses because now it all harmonized.

So much for being brainwashed as you so nastily put it.

What i learned that is not from the bible I've had to unlearn . We all have unwittingly picked up unbiblical teaching to one degree or another . Unless we live in a cave just with a bible, chances are we've been affected by false teachers . My goal is to recognise my bias and presups and Just read and understand what the bible says .

Have you read Calvin's "Institutes of the Christian Religion?"

You can get it on Audible.com and listen to it while on the tread mill or raking leaves this fall. 67 hours of pure joy
Narrated by Bob Souer

You say ///
If you are saved then you were elected to be Saved.

If you were elected to be Saved then you will be given perseverence.


The mere fact of knowing that you are Saved by the Lord Jesus is enough to know that you will persevere. Because Salvation is of Christ and not ourselves.//
Which proves my point . its a vicious circle of insecurity . How do you know your one of those elected to be converted? You are saved , you say . How do you know your saved ? because your given to persevere . How do you know you will persevere ? you don't ultimately. In all practical purposes its no different to Arminianism .

Everyone who is Saved by Christ knows they are Saved.

This Knowledge of Salvation is first and foremost. Everything else comes after. You can call it OSAS or Perseverence of the Saints. They are interchangeable in my opinion.

There is no insecurity in Eternal Security. You are completely wrong in your initial premise, again.