The dreaded doctrine of election and perseverance.

[throughfaith]

This may sound like an unusual topic . But its my contention that the Doctrines of Election and Perseverence are the most damaging to the believer.
The reason for this is ultimately you cannot know the certainty of your election unless your perseverance is in keeping with your election and where it ought to be . This leads to the most crippling and paralysing thoughts that a believer can engage in . This for me is why Calvinsm has to be seriously questioned . This system is responsible for lack of growth within the body and lack of assurance and security leading to legalism and in all intentions and purposes a ' practical ' works based religion that has managed to claim itself as ' Christian ' . The Natural consequences of the System leads to ' Lordship salvation ' ,sold as a good thing and backed by virtue signalling and piety . Now I never argue against Calvinsm based on the philosophical arguments like ' fairness ' , freewill ect . But on this topic of Election and Perseverance this is where we get to the consequences of believing such doctrines.
I do hold to Eternal security, but nothing in the way of Lordship salvation.
This is a tough topic to wade through as there is a great deal of baggage and presuppositions abound in this area .
But what say you ?

 

[Corban]

This may sound like an unusual topic . But its my contention that the Doctrines of Election and Perseverence are the most damaging to the believer.
The reason for this is ultimately you cannot know the certainty of your election unless your perseverance is in keeping with your election and where it ought to be . This leads to the most crippling and paralysing thoughts that a believer can engage in . This for me is why Calvinsm has to be seriously questioned . This system is responsible for lack of growth within the body and lack of assurance and security leading to legalism and in all intentions and purposes a ' practical ' works based religion that has managed to claim itself as ' Christian ' . The Natural consequences of the System leads to ' Lordship salvation ' ,sold as a good thing and backed by virtue signalling and piety . Now I never argue against Calvinsm based on the philosophical arguments like ' fairness ' , freewill ect . But on this topic of Election and Perseverance this is where we get to the consequences of believing such doctrines.
I do hold to Eternal security, but nothing in the way of Lordship salvation.
This is a tough topic to wade through as there is a great deal of baggage and presuppositions abound in this area .
But what say you ?

We seem often not to agree, but with the gist of this we can agree. Maybe though, it is good to let the thread run to see what spawned these doctrines - and then fight the fire there.

 

[throughfaith]

We seem often not to agree, but with the gist of this we can agree. Maybe though, it is good to let the thread run to see what spawned these doctrines - and then fight the fire there.

I like our disagreements lol they are fruitful and challenging.

 

[Corban]

I like our disagreements lol they are fruitful and challenging.

I was once a passenger on a European flight. In the seatrow just in front of me sat two orthodox Jews. From take off to landing they argued - with arms and hands flailing and raised voices. I did not understand their language but it seemed like a religious discussion. But when their kosha meals were served, they bowed their heads in prayer and ate a congenial meal together. I like to think that my contenders on this Forum would, in between energetic disputes, break bread with me.

 

[Grandpa]

Well, your opening premise is all wrong.

If you are saved then you were elected to be Saved.

If you were elected to be Saved then you will be given perseverence.


The mere fact of knowing that you are Saved by the Lord Jesus is enough to know that you will persevere. Because Salvation is of Christ and not ourselves.


You are coming at Salvation from the "I can save myself by my choices" angle. That is what causes your opening premises to be wrong in the first place.

Of course, if you could save yourself by your own choices then by your own choices you could lose that salvation. But that isn't how Salvation actually works.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It’s funny, considering election and eternal life are both scripture,

so according to the op, scripture is damaging to believers.

lol

his hate of calvinism has blinded him to many things, it’s sad

 

[throughfaith]

Well, your opening premise is all wrong.

If you are saved then you were elected to be Saved.

If you were elected to be Saved then you will be given perseverence.


The mere fact of knowing that you are Saved by the Lord Jesus is enough to know that you will persevere. Because Salvation is of Christ and not ourselves.


You are coming at Salvation from the "I can save myself by my choices" angle. That is what causes your opening premises to be wrong in the first place.

Of course, if you could save yourself by your own choices then by your own choices you could lose that salvation. But that isn't how Salvation actually works.

My choice was to believe the one who can save . I believe that after we are sealed by the Holy Spirit this is until the day of redemption.

 

[throughfaith]

Well, your opening premise is all wrong.

If you are saved then you were elected to be Saved.

If you were elected to be Saved then you will be given perseverence.


The mere fact of knowing that you are Saved by the Lord Jesus is enough to know that you will persevere. Because Salvation is of Christ and not ourselves.


You are coming at Salvation from the "I can save myself by my choices" angle. That is what causes your opening premises to be wrong in the first place.

Of course, if you could save yourself by your own choices then by your own choices you could lose that salvation. But that isn't how Salvation actually works.

You say ///
If you are saved then you were elected to be Saved.

If you were elected to be Saved then you will be given perseverence.


The mere fact of knowing that you are Saved by the Lord Jesus is enough to know that you will persevere. Because Salvation is of Christ and not ourselves.//
Which proves my point . its a vicious circle of insecurity . How do you know your one of those elected to be converted? You are saved , you say . How do you know your saved ? because your given to persevere . How do you know you will persevere ? you don't ultimately. In all practical purposes its no different to Arminianism .

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The premise one can persevere is odd. How can one persevere it seems to insinuate one can not persevere and lose salvation
considering 1 sin Can cause us to earn eternal death. One could never persevere enough to keep from losing salvation it could never be earned so the term is a n essence nonsensical and misleading

 

[throughfaith]

It’s funny, considering election and eternal life are both scripture,

so according to the op, scripture is damaging to believers.

lol

his hate of calvinism has blinded him to many things, it’s sad

elected for what is the point? I believe bible uses the word elect . I do not deny the use of the word. And I believe once saved stay saved . I don't believe anything Negative about salvation.

 

[throughfaith]

It’s funny, considering election and eternal life are both scripture,

so according to the op, scripture is damaging to believers.

lol

his hate of calvinism has blinded him to many things, it’s sad

You sound like you hate those who hate calvinism lol

 

[Nehemiah6]

The Natural consequences of the System leads to ' Lordship salvation ' ,sold as a good thing and backed by virtue signalling and piety .

It looks like you should get a better grasp of so-called "Lordship salvation" since all genuine salvation -- by definition -- must be Lordship salvation.

Now please note carefully what is stated here: And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Acts 16:30,31).

Did Paul simply say "Jesus" or "Jesus Christ"? Or did he say "the LORD Jesus Christ"? And if he said that, was there tremendous significance in saying it that way?

ALL GENUINE SALVATION IS LORDSHIP SALVATION. That is because you must believe on the LORD Jesus Christ.

As to Unconditional Election, that is not in accordance with the true Gospel, which offers salvation freely to whosoever will repent and believe. As to perseverance, we are "kept by the power of God".

 

[throughfaith]

It looks like you should get a better grasp of so-called "Lordship salvation" since all genuine salvation -- by definition -- must be Lordship salvation.

Now please note carefully what is stated here: And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Acts 16:30,31).

Did Paul simply say "Jesus" or "Jesus Christ"? Or did he say "the LORD Jesus Christ"? And if he said that, was there tremendous significance in saying it that way?

ALL GENUINE SALVATION IS LORDSHIP SALVATION. That is because you must believe on the LORD Jesus Christ.

As to Unconditional Election, that is not in accordance with the true Gospel, which offers salvation freely to whosoever will repent and believe. As to perseverance, we are "kept by the power of God".

Have you considered that it means ' kurios' ? That to believe that Jesus is who could only be . The only one that could die for our sins , and rise again According to the Scriptures. Lord = Kurios = Diety . We have to believe Jesus is Kurios.

 

[throughfaith]

It looks like you should get a better grasp of so-called "Lordship salvation" since all genuine salvation -- by definition -- must be Lordship salvation.

Now please note carefully what is stated here: And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Acts 16:30,31).

Did Paul simply say "Jesus" or "Jesus Christ"? Or did he say "the LORD Jesus Christ"? And if he said that, was there tremendous significance in saying it that way?

ALL GENUINE SALVATION IS LORDSHIP SALVATION. That is because you must believe on the LORD Jesus Christ.

As to Unconditional Election, that is not in accordance with the true Gospel, which offers salvation freely to whosoever will repent and believe. As to perseverance, we are "kept by the power of God".

Beyond believing that Jesus is Kurios who died for our sins was buried and rose again on the third day according to the Scriptures. That if we believe until receiving Jesus , why add any other condition that is not there in those verses? You see the word Lord ..It says simply Lord . And yet you interpret beyond what the actual word says .

 

[Blain]

Yeah this is indeed a very tricky one, one could contend that those who are saved were elected to be so and free will has nothing to do it but there are some things I have always wondered about this part.
It actually began when I got out of a debate with soemone about thsi very topic and was re readding the bible from the beginning when I guess this topic was still fresh in my mind and the first thing that kind of caught my attention was with God and adam and eve

He put the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden and he forbade them from eating the tree yet they both did, this was the first time I considered the fact they both clearly were given orders not to do something but still chose to do it showing they had a choice to or not to
This garden was supposed to be heaven and always in the presence of God but it wasn't until they chose to disobey him that they were appointed to die and kicked out of the garden

This got me thinking if the garden is supposed to be like heaven on earth then when you were then labeled as sinful you are forbidden to ever enter the haven again it kind of seems to be like with heaven and hell in a sense
In heaven we will always be in his presence but in hell we are forbidden to ever enter heaven and always without his presence ever again Then going through the rest of the bible God has always used the same formula he says what to do and what not to do and also always says what will happen if we disobey and when we connect this to salvation if we are told to repent and accept Jesus as Lord and are warned what will happen if we do not then that begs the question if election is in fact how it works then why does he offer a choice of life or death heaven or hell obey or disobey repent or live according to our fleshly desires?

 

[throughfaith]

Yeah this is indeed a very tricky one, one could contend that those who are saved were elected to be so and free will has nothing to do it but there are some things I have always wondered about this part.
It actually began when I got out of a debate with soemone about thsi very topic and was re readding the bible from the beginning when I guess this topic was still fresh in my mind and the first thing that kind of caught my attention was with God and adam and eve

He put the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden and he forbade them from eating the tree yet they both did, this was the first time I considered the fact they both clearly were given orders not to do something but still chose to do it showing they had a choice to or not to
This garden was supposed to be heaven and always in the presence of God but it wasn't until they chose to disobey him that they were appointed to die and kicked out of the garden

This got me thinking if the garden is supposed to be like heaven on earth then when you were then labeled as sinful you are forbidden to ever enter the haven again it kind of seems to be like with heaven and hell in a sense
In heaven we will always be in his presence but in hell we are forbidden to ever enter heaven and always without his presence ever again Then going through the rest of the bible God has always used the same formula he says what to do and what not to do and also always says what will happen if we disobey and when we connect this to salvation if we are told to repent and accept Jesus as Lord and are warned what will happen if we do not then that begs the question if election is in fact how it works then why does he offer a choice of life or death heaven or hell obey or disobey repent or live according to our fleshly desires?

It pleases him to save those that believe. 1 cor 1.21 . It blows me away that we now get to be with him now .

 

[eternally-gratefull]

elected for what is the point? I believe bible uses the word elect . I do not deny the use of the word. And I believe once saved stay saved . I don't believe anything Negative about salvation.

I think we have established in one of your many anti calvinist threads that your view of election is flawed.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You sound like you hate those who hate calvinism lol

No, I have an issue with anyone who falsly accuses others

 

[John146]

Israel is Gods elect nation for the seed line of Christ, but are enemies of the gospel. Election has nothing to do with being saved. Zero.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

This may sound like an unusual topic . But its my contention that the Doctrines of Election and Perseverence are the most damaging to the believer.
The reason for this is ultimately you cannot know the certainty of your election unless your perseverance is in keeping with your election and where it ought to be . This leads to the most crippling and paralysing thoughts that a believer can engage in . This for me is why Calvinsm has to be seriously questioned . This system is responsible for lack of growth within the body and lack of assurance and security leading to legalism and in all intentions and purposes a ' practical ' works based religion that has managed to claim itself as ' Christian ' . The Natural consequences of the System leads to ' Lordship salvation ' ,sold as a good thing and backed by virtue signalling and piety . Now I never argue against Calvinsm based on the philosophical arguments like ' fairness ' , freewill ect . But on this topic of Election and Perseverance this is where we get to the consequences of believing such doctrines.
I do hold to Eternal security, but nothing in the way of Lordship salvation.
This is a tough topic to wade through as there is a great deal of baggage and presuppositions abound in this area .
But what say you ?

Maybe it would help you understand if you had the correct meaning of Perseverance.
It does not mean I persevere it means God perseveres......it is He who keeps that which entrusted to Him (eternal security)
....for I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that He is able to protect what I have entrusted to Him until that day
2Tim 1:12

I know the TULIP is misinterpreted by many, I see these new definitions in the forums. I think maybe the acronym TULIP causes more misunderstanding than it helps others to know our doctrines.

I suggest if you want the correct definitions you can go to the Reformed websights for correct definitions. You may not agree but at least you will have the right information. I doubt if anyone would disagree with the 5 Solas.

I'm not even sure how these doctrines of grace became known as 'calvinism' except that it is widely accepted. I'm not sure what Wycliffe, Tyndale and Zwingli called themselves........Reformers I guess, since they were of that group.

Calvinists and Baptists are not so very far apart on our basic beliefs that Reformed theology should brings out such hatred for fellow heirs. "Calvinism" is not the reason for lack of growth, the real reason is lack of interest of pew sitters. They walk an aisle, join a church, "listen" to a sermon and know at least 3 verses of scripture.....John 3:16 for sure.

If you want to know our statement of faith read the Westminster Confession.
It is insulting to have people outside of calvinism telling me what I believe......and usually at least 75% wrong. sometimes 100%

Like wise no calvinist should label someone an arminian. Not all non-cals are of that theology which says you can lose your salvation. Methodists and other laws keeping groups have that sad theology.

The more correct word for folks with a more baptist background would be Amyraldian, a term from Moses Amyrald who defined a statement of faith for groups in that view.

You cannot vanquish a Calvinist
You may think you can, but you cannot. The stones of the great doctrines so fit into each other that the more pressure there is applied to remove them, the more strenuously do they adhere. (Spurgeon)