The End, the A.C., Revelation and the rest of it.

I back up my posts with scriptures.
You make assumptions and spout your own opinions.

That the Christian people of God, will be divided into the 12 tribal groups is proved by Revelation 7:9 and 21:9-27
As there has passed over 1000 generations since Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, a mathematical calculation of ancestry shows that everyone alive today must have at least some of their genes.

Note that Revelation 7:9 says they come from every tribe, race, nation and language. Also in Isaiah 66:18b and Revelation 5:9-10

Two things brother;

1. I answered your posting #134. It was about "firstfruits" in Revelation 14. You have answered with Revelation 7. Are you sure you've got the right guy?
2. For your understanding above, you have not given a single scripture.

But let us examine a few of your points. You say that the Church is Raptured. Who then are (i) the multitude of Revelation Chapter 7 who had to wash their garments in Christ's blood? (ii) Who then are those of Revelation 12 "who have the testimony of Jesus Christ"? (iii) Who then are those "saints" of Revelation 13:7 who are overcome by the Beast in war? (iv) Who are those of God's People who are found in commercial Babylon in Revelation 18? (v) And in Revelation 3:10 the Overcomers of a Church are in CONTRAST to those who are not Overcomers. Only the Overcomers will be saved from "the hour of trial that comes on the whole earth". (vi) In Philippians 3:10-14, Paul says that he strives for the PRIZE of the "Upward Call" (literal Greek).

ALL these six cases show that Christians CAN and WILL be on earth during the great Tribulation.

You further say that the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 preach the gospel. But they cause the death of men, not salvation. Is this the gospel? Is drought and plagues and bloodshed the gospel? Is the gospel to turn the other cheek, or to devour enemies?

But we do agree on one thing. The Church is NEVER called Israel. They are contrasted throughout the Bible till New Jerusalem where they are still separate entities. Thus, those of Revelation 7:1-8 are Israelites - fleshly seed of Jacob. They cannot be believers because according to 2nd Corinthians 5:17 they loose their ethnicity once they are IN Christ. In the New Man there NO Jews and NO Gentiles (Gal.3:28; Col.3:11).

I would now advance the reason why the Church is NOT mentioned after Revelation 3. Christians are mentioned but are never called the Church. The Church is the House of God. We are His servants. According to Matthew 24:40 onward, the Lord's servants are serving. Some are "taken" and some are "left". The word "taken" is "paralambano" in the Greek. It means "taken with like an intimate companion". The context is about "THEIR Lord" coming quietly as a thief. A thief always comes for something precious. And when this happens - when some are taken and some are left by THEIR Lord, the House is BROKEN UP. After the Rapture of the Overcomers, God's House is BROKEN UP and cannot be called the Church. The word for "Church" is "Ekklesia", which means "the GATHERING of the called out ones". From the select Rapture the Church is splintered. It would be then called "the DIVIDING or SCATTERING of the called out ones".

Look into "tribulation saints" my friend. Also look into their peculiar position in the heavenly realms after they have been martyred. And then compare and contrast this group with the Church who are already in the heavenly realm as seen in Revelation 4 and 5.

Two specific groups two different orders of service in the heavenly realm.

It seems a strange answer to what I have written, but at least we agree.

So let me be clear. Those of Revelation 7:1-8 are Israelites - fleshly seed of Jacob. They could not be called Israelites if they were believers for a believer is a New Man IN Christ and his ethnicity is dissolved (Gal.3:28; Col.3:11). Those of Revelation 14:1-5 are different in the following points:

1. The are NOT "sealed". They have the Father's Name in their foreheads - reward to Overcoming Christians (Rev.3:12)
2. The scene is in heaven. Rapture is only promised to Overcomers - those who are worthy (Lk.21:36)
3. The scene is away from the earth. They were "redeemed from the earth". Israel are never raptured
4. They are Virgins. Only Christians are "virgins" (2nd Cor.11:2). Israel were "whores" (e.g. Ezek.16)
5. They follow the Lamb. Israel rejected the Lamb, and remain blind till the fullness of the Gentiles at the end of the age
6. They are "redeemed from among men". Redemption is by FAITH in Christ's blood (Eph.1:7, Col.1:14)
7. They are firstfruits. The New Testament meaning is those in a harvest who are ripe first. They go into the Father's House (Ex.23:19, 34:26). The general harvest goes in the "barn" (Matt.13:30)
8. In their mouth was found no guile. Israel curse the name of Jesus. The called Him an emissary of Beelzebub
9. They are without fault before the throne. Israel called for His blood before Pilate's throne

As you can see, the differences between the two companies of 144,000 are massive. But you have rightly said that Israel are never called the Church. Thus, by your own words those of Revelation Chapter 7 CANNOT be BELIEVERS.

Go well bro.

Revelation Chapters 4 and 5 show the coronation of Jesus. For 2,000 years our Lord Jesus has sat in His Father's throne. Now, He is about to settle matters on earth. John is allowed to watch. There are TWO main parties. (i) the 24 Elders, and (ii) the FOUR creatures. The first rule of interpreting scripture is that it may not come from private minds (2nd Pet.1:20). Scripture must be explained with scripture. Now, where is the number 24 found in scripture to explain these "elders". The number 24 occurs only in the connection with the service to Solomon's Temple (1st Chr.27). David, like Moses, was give instructions by God on what He wanted. The Tabernacles and the Temple were to be a copy of the Tabernacle in Heaven. So the 24 courses of Levites who served their two weeks a year were a copy of what was going on in heaven.

I propose that the 24 Elders are heavenly beings who have served God in His heavenlyTabernacle since God mad ethe heavens. That's why they would be called "Elders". Added to this, they had crowns, but Jesus was still to be crowned. That is, they had authority long before God makes Jesus King of kings. This alone would rule out the 24 Elders being "Tribulation Saints". The only argument in your favor is Revelation 5:9-10. In the King James it reads;

9 "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

But if you start to research, it turns out that this rendering has almost not a bit of manuscript support. It is highly controversial among translators. The overwhelming majority of manuscripts render it;

9 "And they sing a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open its seals; because thou hast been slain, and hast redeemed to God, by thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,
10 and made them to our God kings and priests; and they shall reign over the earth."

That is, the 24 Elders were not made kings and priests on earth. They may be kings and priests in heaven, but MEN are made kings and priests FOR the earth. They must be Cherubs.

The 4 Living Creatures appear before, in Ezekiel. In Ezekiel, God was about to judge Israel. But God is so holy, that any Babylonian soldier who tried to enter the Holy of Holies would be instantly killed. So in the opening Chapters of Ezekiel God is vacating the Temple - one of the deepest tragedies ever to happen. The question then is, will Israel have any hope after such a sin against God that He must lose His House on earth? The 4 living creatures are the testimony that God will restore. They refer to the New Heaven and the New Earth. God made SIX living creatures - (i) man, (ii) wild beasts, (iii) domestic beasts, (iv) birds, (v) fish and (vi) creeping things. ALL these except TWO will be redeemed. On the New Earth there is NO SEA, so the fish will pass, and there is not redemption for the creeping things. The FOUR remaining creatures testify of a coming restoration. The setting in Revelation 4 and 5 is again Israel about to be judged, but this time the judgment extends all over the earth.

Four Living Creatures are God's guarantee that He will not judge until nothing is left. It is also remarkable that the four Living Creatures depict the four gospels. In Matthew Jesus is a Lion-King. In Mark He is a serving-Beast. In Luke He is a Man. And in John He is heavenly - the domain of the Eagle.

That there are "Tribulation Saints" I agree. In Revelation 20:4 there were obviously men who refused the Beast and are rewarded by being in the kingdom. But these opposers of the Beast are not in heaven in Revelation 4 and 5.

Matthew 24 is about the end times, rapture included there.

I teach thus;

Study, study and study. However, should interpretation of scripture elude you...study again and remember;
1)..."some things are reserved for our Father's knowledge only"..

also...

......"it shall be revealed in due time".

I have found nothing in scripture that i fail to understand that has anything to do with my eternal salvation.

We know countless antichrist*s* are running around, some in and/or wielding great power. Satan has many options. I would suggest/theorize (by my own understanding only, mind you) that the one and only antichrist, the vessel that is, is not aware or conscious of his coming role.

Luke 22:3
3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

John 13:25-27
25 He then lying on Jesus’ breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it? 26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

come now that is no way to talk,

Those to passage refer to the church, not to the 144,000
These are words of God, he said they came from 12 tribes, I would take God at his word. It does not matter how long it has been, God made a promise to the nation of isreal, he keeps his promises,

rev 7 9 says and after these things, after John saw the 144000 he saw a multitude in heaven, that was the next scene, not the 14400O, instead of telling someone else the spout their own opinions, confess and admit that is the very thing you are doing too

Right; God did make a Promise to ancient Israel. They will be gathered again and all of the holy Land given to them.

Is the Israel; the Jewish State of Israel, all of the descendants of Jacob? No; that cannot be correct as they would be as many as the sands of the sea.
Ancient Israel divided into 2 Houses. The House of Judah is back in a small part of the Land. The House of Israel is still scattered among the nations and we know exactly who they are, because Jesus came to save them. Matthew 15:24
He was successful and we Christians are the result.

Simple really. And please spell Israel correctly!

The ot states Israel and Judah will be brought back from the lands to where they were scattered because of her sin and the nations who treated her badly will be punished
I just like to take God at his word

It hasn't happened yet.
Ezekiel 20:34-38 describes this and proves that only the righteous peoples will go to live in all of the holy land. Psalms 37:29

i agree it has not happened yet, when it does, isreal will have repented. And restored, the rest of the nations will also have their peace. And come to jerusalem once a year to worship, and punished if they do not

Ezekiel 20:34-38 does not say Israel - the Jews, as you believe; will repent and be restored. Such a thing is not found anywhere else, either.
It is just a figment of your imagination, a false theory, made up in order for the Christians, as you and many fancifully believe; will be taken to heaven, while the Jews get their comeuppance in the GT. Not scriptural and will not happen.

its not my imagination, you show no proof otherwise, you mock and attack, and say we are anti christian.

when you are ready to read my post and actually discuss what I said, let me know. We may be able to have a discussion, until then I leave to Your beliefs

Proper Biblical proof of a rapture, would clinch the argument for you. Why don't you provide it?

The word rapture comes from the Latin word rapture, which means to be “caught up” look those two words up in the New Testament, and you will have your proof.

Lamentations 1:19
19 I called for my lovers, but they deceived me:
my priests and mine elders gave up the ghost in the city,
while they sought their meat to relieve their souls.
1 Timothy 4:1-2
4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Matthew 24:24
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
John 3:16-18
Authorized (King James) Version
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...Szp4ptAOlS79t2jbivrybg1zSSjtYk8ti4plSaRSM1ZKc

Read rev 14
It is another "caught up"
If "caught up" offends you,then call it "gathering".
It is a "vehicle" no bogey man at all.

Or try on "gathering of the bride" as in mat 25.

Mat 24 has "one taken/left"
But context places that gathering pretrib


Instead of "show me proof " try on getting out of your fear of context.
Context is your friend.

Postribs have that item reversed.

Neither nt rapture has those gatherings to earth.
Both are "away from earth."

Maybe take a fresh look at the last supper dialog. (Prophecy/declaration)
Then go to rev 19 where Jesus waS correct that the bride becomes the wife in heaven.
The bride is in heaven during the gt.
No way you can change that.
Jacob's trouble is Israel's trouble. That is the purpose of the gt and the dialog of romans.

It is hard to kick against the pricks.
You can not honestly ignore or reframe our verses.

You can do it....but why????