Are the words of Jesus not for Christians?

true

but it seems to me that John is specifically talking about teachers if you read the entire chapter

I am wondering about being so dismissive of the gospels...I don't know what you think about that, but that is the reason I created this op

people dismissing the gospels, Acts and James and probably other things as well

it has been acknowledged that not every thing Jesus said applies to Gentile Christians, but that is ignored by some and they continue to talk about what they refer to as obedience (it isn't) and think that cancels the gospels

yet Jesus gave two commandments that are the summation of the 10.



I am not saying Jesus does not keep us because we know of those promises in scripture

all the verses that could possibly have been quoted as stand alones have already appeared in the not by works thread

I am asking something different here

By providing those scriptures it is for you to see the same information and to make a conclusion from them. I say this because you say "So you believe that salvation can be lost," as though it was my own belief without any scriptural support to back it up. If you read those scriptures that I provided, what do they tell you? James 5:18 for example:

James begins with "my brothers" which tells the reader that he is addressing other believers. Then he says if any of you should wander from the truth and another believer turns him back from his wandering state, that a multitude of sins will be covered over and his soul saved from death.

So yours and everyone else's conclusion to the information in this scripture, should be that if a believer wanders away from the truth, which means to turn away from having faith, that while in that wandered state that person is accumulating sin and is on their way to death, i.e. condemnation. People are not saved just because they make a one-time confession. We must continue in faith, taking up our crosses daily. If we continue in faith we will bear fruit, because we are yielding to the Holy Spirit in His process of sanctification. If we stop having faith, then we are no longer being sanctified, nor are we bearing our crosses daily. We are called by God, but He doesn't force us in. God has given His grace to us and our part is faith.

Here's the scripture you are citing:

"And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not harm them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will be made well.” [/quote]

You see up the words that I have boldened in black? It says "Whoever believes and is baptized" which includes Gentile believers as well. There is nothing in that scripture that would infer that this is for Israel only. By the way, Jesus is speaking to His disciples who represent the church, not Israel. You would also be saying that only Israel is to preach the gospel. Just because scripture says something prior to the when the Gentiles are called, doesn't mean that we should pay no attention to what is written. The word of God is for everyone unless otherwise stated. Prior to the Gentiles being called Jesus said, "I have other sheep that are not of this sheepfold. I must bring them also. The other sheep are the Gentile believers that the Father gave to Him throughout all of history. I would also remind you about the Gentile Centurion of whom Jesus said "I have not see such great faith, no, not in Israel.

In short, the information in Mark 16:15-18 is for all believers and not just Israel. Remember, the apostles represent the church which is made up of both Jew and Gentile and just not Israel.

Although Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles, the dispensation of grace did not begin with him. I would remind you about the grace of God when the Lord sent Peter to the Gentile household of Cornelius, a centurion in what was called the Italian Regiment. Even when Peter was still speaking the gospel to them, He and his family and friends all began to prophesy and speak in languages.

Yes, Jesus was born and lived under the law. Now we're getting somewhere.

So, you believe one can lose their salvation? You must...

you will believe what you will

I don't think you are in a position to tell me what I believe

do you have anything of value to contribute or are you just going to continue to make one liner jabbs?

read post 142

then, read the scriptures he points to as well as the analysis and perhaps some light will shine

He is a dual covenant person he thinks the Jews way to salvation before acts is different

Wrong. Paul addressed Jews as his brethren. James is addressing his Jewish brethren, the twelve tribes.

The council met at Jerusalem to determine God's method of salvation from then on. It is by grace through faith, no works required including baptism. Acts is not a doctrinal book, but a transitional book of the early church.

It kind of is.

Being forgiven by the Lord is based on Faith. If you believe that you have been forgiven of such a great debt what is it to you to forgive small ones?

If you do not forgive the small debts did you ever believe that your HUMONGOUS debt was ever forgiven?

Forgiveness is a fruit of what you have already been given. You've been given a LOT. The LEAST you can do is share just a little of it.


What did the Lord say to the servant who was forgiven a great debt but did not forgive others of their much smaller ones?

oh I have met him in other threads

he is also KJ only etc etc

I see yep that’s him!

I do believe that one can lose their salvation, if they stop having faith, which is also supported by scripture and which is where I got my conclusion from. Faith is not work-based. I did not say that if a person stops performing works, but the person who turns away from having faith. Works is the result of our faith and the indwelling of the Spirit. We are not saved by works, but by having faith in Christ as the One who shed his blood in payment for our sins. When we stop having faith, then we have wandered from the truth and go back to living according to the sinful nature. A person in that state is accumulating sin and is on their way to death. If they are turned back from that wandered stated, the multitude of sins are covered that they were accumulating in that state and are saved from death.

When we come to Christ, it does not give the believer carte blanch to willfully continue living according to the sinful nature. Our part is faith, from first to last. Consider the following:

"Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence—if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creaturee under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

"But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are His house, if we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope of which we boast."

"We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first.

"For the gospel reveals the righteousness of God that comes by faith from start to finish, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

"You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly notg spare you either.

So, according to those scriptures, faith is conditional upon our salvation. Without faith we are dead in our sins. If a believer turns from faith, wandering away from the truth, then in that state that person is accumulating sin and is on his way to condemnation. In that state a person is no longer taking up his cross, no longer bearing fruit and is no longer being transformed into the image of Christ. A person in that state needs to repent and return to his faith, then as the scripture states, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleans us of all unrighteousness. But if a person remains in that wandered state and dies in it, they will have died in their sins.

If OSAS was true, no matter what you do, what of all the warnings throughout scripture?

If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done. And if I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ but they then turn away from their sin and do what is just and right—if they give back what they took in pledge for a loan, return what they have stolen, follow the decrees that give life, and do no evil—that person will surely live; they will not die. None of the sins that person has committed will be remembered against them. They have done what is just and right; they will surely live.

I am finding it interesting, in going back to some of the beginning posts in this thread, that certain people will evaluate a post and determine they like it, when it states 'not everything Jesus said in the gospels is for Gentiles'

they will most certainly not ever state what they think IS for us though

I don't believe every single thing is either

but then again, when I say that, I am thinking of things like John's baptism...not for believers as we are now identified with Jesus in baptism

or circumcision...it's always been the heart God is after so no need to cut your flesh, you are not under that contract

or even the 10 commandments since Jesus summed them up

stuff like that

but Jesus also said IN THE GOSPELS

I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

so if that is not your belief, then you are not saved since Jesus said it, IN THE GOSPELS

are there 11 commandments?

does #11 state :thou shalt forgive all who trespass against thee? it does not even appear to be an issue other than throw another lamb on the fire, but with Jesus it is a heart issue

Jesus said it. in the gospels. stop trying to skirt around the issue by saying it was written for someone else

this translates into an ongoing issue of sin. we all have trouble from time to time and some of us have really awful things to work through and forgive

but nowhere does Jesus say...'hey listen dude. I know Karen and Kevin really hurt you, so I'll give you a pass on that one.'

salvation through Jesus is not a smorgasbord. we don't get to pick what we like about and what we don't like about it

I don't know if anyone else sees this, but what I see are people saying Jesus words are just too hard for them so they walk away, just like the disciples who did so after Jesus spoke these words:

52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread[c] the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 Jesus[d] said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.

The Words of Eternal Life
60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

just gonna reply again to this gem

the Bible says more than that and you do not get to decide which is true or not

you either believe all is true or you are not actually believing but have made up your own version of the gospel

which, sadly,

does

not

save

Regarding the gift of tongues/languages, I'm also reminded of what Paul said:

"Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, b but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, c unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified."

Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”

So, those churches were everyone is speaking in supposed languages, would fit what Paul said above about the unbelievers attending saying, "you are out of your minds."

That speaking in languages is a requirement and proof of salvation is just another false teaching. Can you imagine those who don't speaking in tongues how teaching could destroy their faith?!

No! You are wrong. James 5:18, is for all believers, not just the Jews. I reiterate, James says, "my brothers," i.e. other believers in Christ. With your interpretation of this, you would be saying the Jew and Gentile have two different plans of salvation. James is speaking to both Jew and Gentile Christians and therefore, the scripture is to be applied to all. James is certainly not speaking about wandering Jews returning to the law of Moses, but to Jews and Gentiles who wander away from faith.

I might be wrong, but I think even with those who do speak in tongues, most agree that is not a sign of salvation although I am aware that certain cultish churches do say that. on the other hand, some churches sure in a hurry to get you speaking in tongues and will try to 'teach' you how to do that. this is also nowhere to be found in scripture

we can even ask for gifts, according to Paul, but the gifts are not the purpose. the purpose seems to be always for edification, even in personal use, and certainly for the body of believers in Jesus

as they say, put your emphasis on the giver and not the gifts

I agree and teach that salvation is by grace through faith. We as believers are to garner whatever truths are found in all scripture regardless of labeling them as doctrinal or transitional. Every book is scripture for us.

I guess some of these brethren had not received the word and their souls were not saved. But hey....they are brethren.

James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

Can you post just one other scripture, and there are dozens, where the phrase “twelve tribes” is referring to christians and not the nation of Israel?