So I have an idea for a discussion

You

Yes, but the suggestion seems to be that we are not supposed to preach the Kingdom but instead the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

However I do not see any need to separate them. As a matter of fact if you separate the message of Jesus being the one that fulfills all the OT promises that the Jews in the first century were looking forward to and that understanding that they had concerning a future Kingdom, and if you do not include that message when you explain the meaning of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ you would not be preaching the Gospel the way they did after the Cross either.

The message of the Kingdom of God is the message of the Gospel. We look at how Peter, Stephen, Paul, Philip and of course Jesus on the road to Damascus preached from the Law and the Prophets explaining the entire Missio Dei (mission of God) as revealed in the entire redemptive story which involved Israel at a foundational level and we are preaching the true Gospel. We have to trace the promise of the Kingdom from the beginning prophesies such as Daniels messages about the Son of Man who would come and establish a kingdom that would fill the earth and that would usher in Israels restoration of a remnant who would be His People and He would be their God, and also the promise that He would be a light of the Gentiles, these promises in the OT are the best way to preach the Gospel.

When people do not use these promises and explain how Jesus fulfilled them they are not preaching the way Peter, Paul, Stephen, Phillip, and Jesus did. It is the same message before the cross but with more details about how the promises are fulfilled after the cross. They preached that the Messiah was the lamb of God come to take away the sins of the world. We do also. We know how, but they knew it was true even if they did not know how.

do you think there’s more than one kingdom Of Gods and one gathering of his people into his kingdom ?

Jesus will return at the end of the world to judge everyone according to his word which we either believe or reject. At that time some will be given their inheritance in his one and only eternal
Kingdom.


“ And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”

‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:40-43‬ ‭KJV‬‬


this is about the end of the world it is the same event as this this is what Paul and peter teach the church were waiting for and looking for it’s not a different event than this it’s about the kingdom and his second coming that’s when the one kingdom is going to be given



“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats....

.....Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:



Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:



And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:

but the righteous into life eternal.”

‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:31-32, 34, 41, 46‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What rapture are you referring to ?

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:29-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he’s not returning several times with the angels it’s a one tome event at the end of the world when his kingdom will come forth this eternal kingdom


no I see it as more people need to preach the true Gospel so people can believe.....pretty strange doctrine you keep I couldn’t find any agreement ever with such a thing as The gospel shouldn’t be preached .

Gives me the willies to even entertain the thought really

it hadn’t happened yet ....no I’ve said several times the death and resurrection is essential I’m saying that you don’t believe one thing and reject the rest

You are aware that Peter rebuked Jesus telling him he had to die during the 4 gospels?

He grew up with studying the Law and the Prophets, yet he did not believe Jesus had to die.

Was he saved during the 4 Gospel time period?

Was it essential during the time before Christ died too?

it’s essential for anyone to believe that God was going to deal with sin once for all . It doesn’t matter if you were before or after the cross . God has made these promises for centuries before

if one refuses to believe what God said we can’t be saved thats 100 percent true no matter how many times you say you believe he died and rose you have to accept the word of God but I’m done I’m a drop off this just a derailment of the thread I attempted to start so anyways you can find others who want to be convinced of this idea ive
Met a few already here who like discussing why Jesus word doesn’t apply to salvation

.I don’t enjoy the topic I find it Childish and So basic that Gods word always applies to his people. Sort of why I asked in the op not to bring this doctrine into the thread .

so can you just explain in your words what you mean by rapture people have different ideas of it . If I just asked you “ what’s the rapture ?” What would you say to me in person ?

Maybe at some other point we can find something to agree on there’s absolutely no argument anyone can ever make to pull me away from Gods word I’m Christian Christ’s word is my light and life So I don’t think weee going to come together on this.

First I would like to ask of tour purpose is to make the argument Jesus words don’t apply to his church please as a Christian brother or sister find a post that is debating that .

my idea is let’s discuss the thing Jesus Christ taught his followers in the four gospels and see if we can have a spirit of understanding who Jesus is to us and learn humbly ?

not sure how this will be received in this forum I’m new here haven’t gotten a feel for the environment yet .

God bless you do you have a favorite section , teaching or event in the gospel that offers something of value in understanding to discuss or share ? I would love to discuss our Lord Jesus Christ according to the gospel that is written

The true gospel that saves today is found in 1 Cor 15:1-4.

Anyone who preach any other gospel to unbelievers today, Paul pronounced a double curse on them in Galatians 1:8-9.

That to me is very clear.

Of course I Cor. 15:1-4 is good news. But so are the words of Jesus Himself in John 14:6 - "I am the way, the truth, and the life" -- that is the same gospel preached by Paul.

But Jesus was preaching the gospel of the kingdom, that the Jews needed to accept him as the son of God

John 10:24-25, John 20:31

That was the entire reason why John wrote his gospel account

Right.



You are correct... there were some things that must necessarily have been kept secret/hidden BEFORE His death (for this reason: 1Cor2:8).

But which AFTER His death were secret/hidden no more...

30 “Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through [/in] a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.” - Acts 17:30-31


...there is one thing one ought not to be found in attitude of:

"...and having esteemed ordinary the blood of the covenant... "



...for we see:

"18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, firstborn out from the dead, so that He might be holding preeminence in all things, 19 because all the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace by [means of] the blood of His cross through Him, whether the things on the earth or the things in the heavens." Colossians 1:18-20 [see also verses 21-23]




Well, yes... because even at the empty sepulchre, it is said of Peter and that other disciple (John 20:9), "For AS YET THEY KNEW NOT the scripture, that He must rise again from the dead." (and, in fact, there was only ONE of these two of whom it was said, in that scene, that "he SAW [the linen clothes] AND BELIEVED"--and it was not Peter of whom this was said). How could they have "preached 'His death and resurrection'" at any time before this point? The fact is, they did not.


____________

["...which also you received, in which you also stand..."]

There’s nothing you could ever explain to change that God appeared on earth and offered eternal life he explained it and said believe Paul is a witness of that
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

There are something like 5-7 distinct "judgments"... the one you are pointing out here ^ is "the judgment seat [/BEMA] of Christ," which is designated solely for the "WE" of this text (i.e. "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY")... and the word "evil/bad [G5337]" here can mean "ordinary, mean, worthless, of no account" (i.e. of no eternal value... like, even seemingly 'good' things believers may invest their time and efforts into, but which are not 'instigated and driven' by the Spirit, they are just 'fluff'... of no eternal value).

Same context being spoken of in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15... "But let every man take heed HOW he buildeth THEREUPON... Now if any man BUILD UPON this foundation GOLD, SILVER, PRECIOUS STONES [things of eternal value], WOOD, HAY, STUBBLE [worthless things (even seemingly 'good' things, that are simply of no eternal value) that get burned up]; Every man's WORK [singular] shall be made manifest... because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall TRY every man's WORK of what SORT it is. If any man's WORK [singular] abide which he hath built THEREUPON, he shall receive A REWARD. If any man's WORK [singular] shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire." This is not a so-called "general judgment" of ALL mankind of all time periods. This is pertaining SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" at the "BEMA" (for "reward" or loss of "reward"--not for determining "salvation / eternal life ").


At the time of Rev5:9 (when the 24 elders say, "hath redeemed US to God... out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" [and they are saying this while UP IN Heaven, and BEFORE the FIRST SEAL is opened, when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE") a "searching judgment" has ALREADY taken place, as indicated by the word "was found" in 5:4 (just like is used in Paul's arrest and trials toward the end of Acts, when he is brought before their "human/earthly" bema). The 24 elders are shown to be wearing "stephanous/crowns" (4:4,10; see Rev2:10 and 3:11 in the "things WHICH ARE" section of Rev) and are wearing "white himatiois " (4:4; see 3:5, again in that section of chpts 2-3), and are sitting on "24 THRONES" (now what do you suppose THOSE are for? see 1Cor6:3,2,14, etc [other passages elsewhere]).

This is not the same "judgment" as the GWTj in Rev20:11-15, nor the same "judgment" as the "Sheep and goat [of the still-living nations at the time of His "RETURN" to the earth] judgment/separation," and this is not the same "judgment" as the 70th Week of Daniel (for Israel, though Gentiles will also be involved in that time period--commonly called the 7-yr tribulation period, leading UP TO His Second Coming to the earth Rev19, which time period is the "DARK/DARKNESS/IN THE NIGHT"-aspect OF the entire long time period known as "the Day of the Lord" [which is not merely 'a singular 24-hr day']). These are all DISTINCT "judgments" (if you will), for DISTINCT PURPOSES, and pertaining to distinct persons. The one you are referring to pertains solely to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (all those saved/having come to faith "in this present age [singular]"--i.e. from Pentecost to the time of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"... [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence); and Paul in 2Th2 is telling of a SEQUENCE--WHAT happens WHEN, in relation TIME-WISE to WHAT OTHER THING.])

Paul was preaching the gospel of the kingdom also there’s only 1 gospel here is PAULS words to the Ephesians church

“And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭20:25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s what Paul is saying here is what Paul preached when he first began

“And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭9:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

again pauls role in Christianity is a witness to the one true gospel he is a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ Our lord

“Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:1, 3-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when you guys are saying “ I believe in the death and resurrection “ the reason your supposed to believe that is because it is proof of who jesus is . He is the Lord the term lord has a meaning

“one having power and authority over others: a : a ruler by hereditary right or preeminence to whom service and obedience are due. “

That’s why pauls and the apostles are always talking about inheritance the earth and everything in it belongs to Jesus . This world will be destroyed but by the gospel we can be saved from the terrible end .

when we confess Jesus as lord it has a meaning we have to mean it be sincere he is our Lord and he is full of ah race and truth for salvation

Does this declaration apply to the whole law, is the law also made for man not man for the law?

The Law had many purposes, but the Law was fulfilled by Christ. Christ is Lord of the Sabbath since He is the one who established the 7th day Sabbath. But He also established the Lord's Day.

In view of the direction of this thread and your stated preference to stay on track with the OP, perhaps we can catch up on this particular topic ( ^ ) at another time and in a different thread.

[I'll just say here that Paul doesn't merely reference it in one verse, the one ppl commonly acknowledge--1Th4:17--but something like TEN TIMES in his two epistles to the Thessalonians--and, again, "Rapture" pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]), NOT to all other saints of all OTHER time periods--not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints]




Well, to be clear, I too believe ALL OF IT is "God's Word" (from Genesis to Revelation)... so I am the same, in that regard...

it's just that we are to be "correctly apportioning the word of truth". For example, a new believer may ask themselves if they are supposed to be building an ark next week. Answer: no. That was instruction for Noah, in Noah's day. It applied to him, in particular, and at a particular time-frame. = )


Thanks for the discussion. I've enjoyed it despite its getting "off track" from the OP (I think!... However, I think when I first read the OP I must have misunderstood the objective... my apologies. )

Carry on! (see you around the boards!)

Here are Jesus' words in the Beatitudes:

3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

These are not so much commands or ideals for us to strive for.
Instead, Jesus is saying that the people who are meek, poor, and mourning are blest and happy: both now and in the future!

So the believer in Christ Jesus will find himself at these Beatitudes - this is who we are!

True, but even after Christ fulfilled the law we still have James speaking of it as the law that brings freedom and teling us to be doers of the law.

I look to the psalmist and the way he sings so lovingly about the law, as well. The law is perfect and lovely, yet many Christians seem to think it is an adversary.

Maybe Christ was revealing something about the relationship we're to have with the law not living by the letter but by the Spirit by which it came.

Maybe that's how we can join in the song singing "Oh how I love your law!"

Sometimes I read this and I think about the grace that was available to them at that time if they would have come to him in faith. The fact that Moses face shown with the Glory of God should have made their hearts rejoice but their lack of faith caused them to fear.

Even today not only the unbelieving Jews but those that claim to know Christ may be guilty of a lack of faith and find no desire to fully surrender to all that God has for them. They are afraid to receive an experience of a filling of the Holy Spirit to speak the word of God boldly as they ought to speak. They are not really interested in any kind of Spiritual experience that God would love for them to have. They shrink back in fear of the supernatural. They shrink back in pride and fear of being labeled a fanatic if they were to allow God to use them in the gifts of the Spirit as written about in the book of Acts or 1 Corinthians. They are of that camp that "are glad" that these gifts ceased in the 1st century. They breath a sigh of relief and think in their hearts.. "whew... I am so glad those gifts ceased so that I don't have to operate in those gifts and look weird to people". These are those who would say to Moses... "cover your face" We don't want to experience any of that scary stuff.