Abortion - Bible and Feminism

rastai said:

I do think on a basic level abortion is murder.

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“I do not think”
You’re right, you don’t.

Gerlinde24 said:

In the USA, but also in Germany and Austria, Christians have different opinions on the subject of abortion. Some give women the right to decide for themselves what feminists demand; others see abortion as murder, and aborted women and doctors as murderers.
But is it really just a "black and white thing"? Or is it a little more complicated?
Should a woman or girl who has been raped be forced to have a baby, or should she not be given the right to abortion, to avoid further psychological and physical harm?

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Why stop at killing babies in the womb because their fathers are rapists? What about small children and adults whose father's raped their mothers. Why can't their mothers kill them, too and get away with it?

And what about fathers? If mothers have the right to kill their children, why shouldn't fathers also have that legal right? Isn't that gender discrimination?

And why does the law allow for prosecuting a mother who does not breastfeed her child or parents who do not change the diapers and just neglect to care for their children. In some states neglect is included in the laws for abuse. Why should a mother be allowed to have her baby killed in the womb, but be forced to use __her body__ to work to clothe, feed, and change diapers? If killing is okay, why isn't abuse and neglect? And isn't it gender discrimination to allow only women to neglect and abuse children (in the ultimate way by killing them) and not fathers?

And what is the mother of 8 children who can no longer feed any more children because the husband/partner has left?

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Why engage in age discrimination? Why would only the youngest be allowed to be murdered? Why shouldn't parents have a legal right to murder all 8 of the children?

And what about the woman who doesn't want children and where the anti-baby pill has failed?

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Should she be allowed to murder all eight kids if she doesn't want them?

One problem with all of this, murdering babies in the womb and abusing and murdering the children and adults outside of the womb is that such things are sins against God. The Bible says 'Do not murder.'

I was told that the Bible (especially the Old Testament) condemns abortion. Only, the Bible was written more than 2,000 years ago, when people had little idea of pregnancy, contraception, and things like that, and where children were seen as possessions, cheap labor, and insurance for old age.
What is your opinion on this?

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I'd say that point is not really relevant to our discussion, and also that they seemed to understand what pregnancy was. Children are still cheap labor if you can get them to do anything?

Gerlinde24 said:

This biblical passage is about a prophecy, not abortion. And one more thing: A fetus is not a baby or a human being (from a medical and legal point of view), finally get it!

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John the Baptist was in his mother's womb. The Bible calls him a 'babe.' He was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb.


If I called you a 'fetus' and got a state legislature to declare you a 'fetus' does that mean it would be moral for someone to murder you?

Gerlinde24 said:

For a long time Israel did not exist as a nation, but consisted as nomads. One did not have a God, but many gods, both female and male.
Then the tribes united and became the Israeli nation. With a God, although a goddess was long honored in the Temple of Jerusalem as "Mrs. God" before her statues were violated.

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Your quote from German is not inconsistent with the depiction of Israel we see in the Old Testament. Israel had perverted the true religion, claiming to worship the God of Israel, but also worshiping a number of idols.

Also, there are plenty of passages of the Bible indicating that there are real spiritual entities that the nations worshipped as gods. These __might__ include the 'sons of God', but certainly sheddim, basically demons, but real spiritual entities. There are various elim, which we might loosely consider to be 'angels' or other spiritual beings referenced. But YHWH is the true creator God, different and distinct from these other created beings. Even the New Testament says, 'For though there be that are called gods in heaven and in earth...but to us there is but one God...'

The story of Onan shows us that the wasting of seeds was under "God's punishment".

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That's a medieval interpretation. Onan was tasked with raising up seed to his brother, producing an heir in the name of a deceased brother. He took the sex from his late brother's widow, but engaged in coitus interuptus so as not to get her pregnant with the child for which he was supposed to take his brother's wife.

Women at the time could neither prevent nor abort, but they knew herbs that could prevent the semen from continuing shortly after conception (inserted into the vagina).

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I'm not sure about that. We are not omniscient about ancient birth control. The Didache forbids abortion, so there were some ways to do it or try to, apparently, by the first century.

I haven't found a place in the Bible, and believe me, I've really been looking for where the Bible speaks explicitly about abortion.

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Look up the passage about two men fighting and one hitting a pregnant woman and the eye for an eye penalty if 'the fruit departs'. The LXX translation into Greek certain took this to refer to an abortion/miscarriage type situation in which the penalties were severe.

Gerlinde24 said:

In the USA, but also in Germany and Austria, Christians have different opinions on the subject of abortion. Some give women the right to decide for themselves what feminists demand; others see abortion as murder, and aborted women and doctors as murderers.
But is it really just a "black and white thing"? Or is it a little more complicated?
Should a woman or girl who has been raped be forced to have a baby, or should she not be given the right to abortion, to avoid further psychological and physical harm?
And what is the mother of 8 children who can no longer feed any more children because the husband/partner has left?
And what about the woman who doesn't want children and where the anti-baby pill has failed?
I was told that the Bible (especially the Old Testament) condemns abortion. Only, the Bible was written more than 2,000 years ago, when people had little idea of pregnancy, contraception, and things like that, and where children were seen as possessions, cheap labor, and insurance for old age.
What is your opinion on this?

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Opinions don't matter. The only thing that matters is what's right regardless of opinion. What's right is independent of all opinions. One may form an opinion that matches it or not. God knows what's right. Believers of God do too. All matters of right and wrong are not matters of opinion for they were decided by God already. They are matters of obedience to God. Obey God as per the commandments of Jesus Christ. Everyone may know on their own what is right regardless of whether they agree and obey. As such, I do not need to answer your question on abortion. Avoid all that is wrong and do only what is right.

As for feminism. It is unnecessary. It is of man, so it is inferior to religion, which is of God. Women who follow religion already feel content with the love of Jesus Christ and can never be content with a man-made-god-denying thing like feminism instead. Any rights women need are already provided by Jesus Christ. Only the godless ones who do not follow Jesus Christ claim not to have rights, which is where feminism came from. In fact, the ones that choose feminism over God go to hell. The ones who partially choose feminism weaken their faith in God since they end up associating with godless types and hurt the Body of Christ as such, especially if they allow those godless types near their brothers and sisters instead of keeping them at bay. There is no good in feminism. It oughta be declared illegal.

Remember contentment and freedom are not the same thing. Do not be deceived by Satan trying to trick you out of your contentment with temptations for more freedom. A person who has limited options but is cared for and loved by everyone close to them are a lot happier than someone who has hundreds of options but are always angry and never deeply happy. Be content with what you have in this life instead of fervently seeking what you don't have. Remember how Jesus Christ asked someone who was impeccable in keeping the law to give up all his possessions to claim the Kingdom of Heaven, and that man sadly disobeyed and left. Don't be like him. Be like the Apostles instead who gave up everything to be with Jesus Christ.

Matthew 19:18-30 (WEB)

18 He said to him, “Which ones?” Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder.’ ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ ‘You shall not steal.’ ‘You shall not offer false testimony.’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother.’Exodus 20:12-16; Deuteronomy 5:16-20 And, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”Leviticus 19:18

20 The young man said to him, “All these things I have observed from my youth. What do I still lack?”

21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 But when the young man heard this, he went away sad, for he was one who had great possessions.

23 Jesus said to his disciples, “Most certainly I say to you, a rich man will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven with difficulty. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through a needle’s eye than for a rich man to enter into God’s Kingdom.”

25 When the disciples heard it, they were exceedingly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”

26 Looking at them, Jesus said, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

27 Then Peter answered, “Behold, we have left everything and followed you. What then will we have?”

28 Jesus said to them, “Most certainly I tell you that you who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on the throne of his glory, you also will sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 Everyone who has left houses, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, will receive one hundred times, and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many will be last who are first, and first who are last.

Godspeed.

Gerlinde24 said:

May I ask you how intelligent you are, your answer suggests little intelligence, but a lot of stubbornly.
Legally, the term murder/murderer is very narrow. And abortion is not legally one of them. Not even in the Us, according to a Supreme Court decision.

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Why should i care for the Laws of the nations of this world??? As if a court decision of one of the nations on earth trumps the will of the creator of the universe... How deluded can you get to put forward this point in a Christian forum???

And in the US and elsewhere, there is a separation between church and state.

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I don't care.. it is irrelevant to the will of God.. nations come and go.. God is Eternal..

Those who ignore both ignore not only life, but also the right of man to self-determination. Don't tell me what To say, think, or do! I don't do it with you!

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What you chose is up to you.. My calling is to give you warning.. My loyalty is to God.. not to the kingdom of this world..

Stupid people like you compare apples to pears because they are narrow-minded. They only see what they want to see, believe only what they want to believe without paying attention to facts.
Dear admins, please delete my account immediately, otherwise I have to vomit.

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You are free to exit this forum any time you like..

I can immediately give you a good hundred examples from my life. so men have done violence to me in one way or another.

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And NONE of that violence justifies ANYONE in hacking to death a little innocent one in their mothers womb..

Gerlinde24 said:

In the USA, but also in Germany and Austria, Christians have different opinions on the subject of abortion. Some give women the right to decide for themselves what feminists demand; others see abortion as murder, and aborted women and doctors as murderers.
But is it really just a "black and white thing"? Or is it a little more complicated?
Should a woman or girl who has been raped be forced to have a baby, or should she not be given the right to abortion, to avoid further psychological and physical harm?
And what is the mother of 8 children who can no longer feed any more children because the husband/partner has left?
And what about the woman who doesn't want children and where the anti-baby pill has failed?
I was told that the Bible (especially the Old Testament) condemns abortion. Only, the Bible was written more than 2,000 years ago, when people had little idea of pregnancy, contraception, and things like that, and where children were seen as possessions, cheap labor, and insurance for old age.
What is your opinion on this?

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I want to address this question in my ignorance and disbelief. Like a fever is the result of an infection, abortion is the result of the work of the enemy of man in the world. just as cannibalism is wrong after the fact of murder, abortion happens at the second or third tier of wrongdoing. If abortion is the result of an unwanted pregnancy which is the result having sex for the wrong reason which is the result of replacing the joining of with the fulfilling of which is itself a rending of the social fabric of our society at the level of the individual and the family then abortion is the flowering body of a seed of corruption. The laws or lack thereof about abortions, now and then, the need for said laws, the arguements the corrupted sex act and the abortion itself all disappear if we address the source of the tampering. For, In that day you will realize, i am in you and you are in me and i am in the father.

Hosea 13 16. the people of samaria must bear their guilt/ their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open. Lamentations 4 10 with their own hands compassionate women have cooked their own children. You cant accuse the woman aborter with wrongdoing, since the doctor is actually the abortist (do no harm?) but we, too are complicit b/c we told her we cant seem to stop (what she does/ why we do) or admit there is a problem. Just as homosexuality is a corrupted sex act. ( Love shall be the whole of the law, do as though wilt.) and shunning them for it denies christ in wrongdoers. Now, before you get mad, these legalistic arguments belong to our accuser, who we blame, and also praise; But as for me and my house, we will serve the lord. The only caveat we have is; the woman, the doctor, you and me we are all oppressed and misled, just like those israelites who tore open those pregnant woman and burned those people alive were, who fought the wars of Jehovah so he could destroy them as well after christ could be born and be killed by those same laws saying; If the owner of the house had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into- you are fully aware that the day of the lord will come like a thief in the night. The enemy of man wants to kill christ again, does it not say he died for our iniquities and by his wounds we are healed,- let him hurry, let him act quickly so we may see it. but, fearfully enough, given our discussion- he says for i will not drink again of this cup until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God. Many false prophets will come and claim i am he / then the end will come.

GeorgiaMeet said:

Christian Chat Staff said Alesa posted too much, and it was too hard to DELETE all of her posts. She was banned from using Christian Chat. Guess I will be banned next for telling you.

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Why do we need to know this and how does this apply to the thread?

GeorgiaMeet said:

Do they ask you not to be mean?

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How about you answer the question instead...which is exactly what it is. Not a "mean" comment.

blueluna5 said:

So whether you support throwing babies to a volcano god or dismembering a baby in the womb it's the same thing.

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That comparison is valid considering that those who abort their children and those who sacrifice them to a god have made the power of fertility an idol

There are two main reasons why sola scripture is inadequate...
1/ Things that don't appear in the bible, like abortion, are considered to be fine
2/ Interpretations of the bible become subjective when left to the individual creating many divisions

This is a classic example that touches on both... The Bible doesn't specifically condemn abortion therefore there are many Christians who don't believe its sinful and refuse to repent. Often the people who have been involved in an abortion or knows a loved one who has will take this subjective position. I also find it interesting how Christians have various opinions on contraception as well...


I love this statue... It represents the regret of a woman who aborted her child... Its very moving

"Thou shall not kill" (murder) covers ALL aspects of it. It's true meaning does not include capitol punishment or wars that are justified. The argument of a woman can choose what she wants to do with her own body, includes a hysterectomy, tooth extraction, haircut and style, toenail and fingernail clipping etc. but the baby growing inside her is NOT her OWN body. If it were so, she would still have the right to destroy her child after birth. C'mon, it is primarily a form of birth control, or an unwanted pregnancy. Regarding rape, incest etc., the baby may still be given up for adoption, but the commandment still stands. For those who love to argue, then do it with the Word and give contextual scripture, and not with me.

It's difficult for me to understand a Christian who thinks it's ok to end the life of child in the womb.

Our God, creator of all that is entered human life as one celled human being.
How can a Christian think it's ok to end the life of a one celled human being?

Benadam said:

It's difficult for me to understand a Christian who thinks it's ok to end the life of child in the womb.

Our God, creator of all that is entered human life as one celled human being.
How can a Christian think it's ok to end the life of a one celled human being?

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Easy... Sola Scripura... Bible doesn't specifically condemn it...
It never made sense to me either until this guy, strict Sola Scripura, literally.
(i've been meaning to ask him what he thinks about the trinity. he should reject it based on his method)

And after chatting with him on this and a few other things I understand. If a person claims to be strict Sola Scripura then they really should have no qualms about abortion. In fact he actually pulled out OT scripture to say this is the closest thing to abortion in the bible and God used it... He can present his case better than but...

U would probably say all the things i did but he defines life as starting at birth and he won't budge on it.

At 8 weeks the baby can feel pain. Inflicting pain is an immoral act...
U can build a moral argument from that, i did. Inflicting pain is immoral