By Works

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J

Jackson123

Senior Member
#461
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
#461
eternally-gratefull said:
Because he was still his fathers son. He never stopped being the son if he died the father would go get him and bring him home just like our father does us
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Adam was in the Father Garden of Eden, his offspring must be in the garden because Adam and his
offspring is God children.
Base on your logic, no body go to hell, it doesn't matter if people killing each other, stealing from each other raping as long as Adam offspring, go to heaven. And why God drive Adam away from the garden
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#462
#462
eternally-gratefull said:
Because he was still his fathers son. He never stopped being the son if he died the father would go get him and bring him home just like our father does us
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If he died a wanton whoremonger and drunkard he would wake up in hell tormented in the flames, just like the rich man who thought he had it made because he was Abrahams son. He never stopped being Abraham's son but it did him no good because he died in his sins without repentance. He wanted Lazarus to go warn his brothers so that they would not trust in their being the seed of Abraham and REPENT so that they would not come to this place of torment. Abraham told him.. "Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things," Being Abrahams Son did not change did it? Your logic is faulty and invalid.
The Lord knows who are his and let every man that nameth the name of Christ DEPART from iniquity. I believe in the eternal security of the Christian but not of the wanton whoremonger and drunkard. Let's not blurr the lines with this "always a son" idea.

Also the parable is not a parable about being born again. If anything it was about the Pharisees being the elder brother and the prodigal being a sinner who was coming to Jesus. It was at this time a Jewish family they had in mind who were living in Israel under the customs of the Law.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#464
#464
Scribe said:
If he died a wanton whoremonger and drunkard he would wake up in hell tormented in the flames, just like the rich man who thought he had it made because he was Abrahams son. He never stopped being Abraham's son but it did him no good because he died in his sins without repentance. He wanted Lazarus to go warn his brothers so that they would not trust in their being the seed of Abraham and REPENT so that they would not come to this place of torment. Abraham told him.. "Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things," Being Abrahams Son did not change did it? Your logic is faulty and invalid.
The Lord knows who are his and let every man that nameth the name of Christ DEPART from iniquity. I believe in the eternal security of the Christian but not of the wanton whoremonger and drunkard. Let's not blurr the lines with this "always a son" idea.

Also the parable is not a parable about being born again. If anything it was about the Pharisees being the elder brother and the prodigal being a sinner who was coming to Jesus. It was at this time a Jewish family they had in mind who were living in Israel under the customs of the Law.
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This parable was in the same setting as the Rich Man and Lazarus, under the Jewish system and if the prodigal would have died he would have been in the torments of hell along with the rich man
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

Senior Member
#465
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,719
113
#465
Scribe said:
If he died a wanton whoremonger and drunkard he would wake up in hell tormented in the flames, just like the rich man who thought he had it made because he was Abrahams son. He never stopped being Abraham's son but it did him no good because he died in his sins without repentance. He wanted Lazarus to go warn his brothers so that they would not trust in their being the seed of Abraham and REPENT so that they would not come to this place of torment. Abraham told him.. "Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things," Being Abrahams Son did not change did it? Your logic is faulty and invalid.
The Lord knows who are his and let every man that nameth the name of Christ DEPART from iniquity. I believe in the eternal security of the Christian but not of the wanton whoremonger and drunkard. Let's not blurr the lines with this "always a son" idea.

Also the parable is not a parable about being born again. If anything it was about the Pharisees being the elder brother and the prodigal being a sinner who was coming to Jesus. It was at this time a Jewish family they had in mind who were living in Israel under the customs of the Law.
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I've shared this with him in the past. We had a person who said he lives in drunkenness and fornication. I warned said person with 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 and he appeared to take it to heart later on. Others coddled him in his sin, and attempted to shame me over it. They cannot get past the error of "I made a one time decision, it is all good from here on out!" Instead of being theologically astute, they were inept and made a grave error concerning ones eternal soul.

If the prodigal, theologically speaking, never returned to the father in repentance, he would prove himself unconverted no matter his previous confession. Of course I am hypothesizing this parable as they are, but to the logical biblical end.
 
Rosemaryx

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
#466
May 3, 2017
3,758
4,120
113
63
#466
Scribe said:
If he died a wanton whoremonger and drunkard he would wake up in hell tormented in the flames, just like the rich man who thought he had it made because he was Abrahams son. He never stopped being Abraham's son but it did him no good because he died in his sins without repentance. He wanted Lazarus to go warn his brothers so that they would not trust in their being the seed of Abraham and REPENT so that they would not come to this place of torment. Abraham told him.. "Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things," Being Abrahams Son did not change did it? Your logic is faulty and invalid.
The Lord knows who are his and let every man that nameth the name of Christ DEPART from iniquity. I believe in the eternal security of the Christian but not of the wanton whoremonger and drunkard. Let's not blurr the lines with this "always a son" idea.

Also the parable is not a parable about being born again. If anything it was about the Pharisees being the elder brother and the prodigal being a sinner who was coming to Jesus. It was at this time a Jewish family they had in mind who were living in Israel under the customs of the Law.
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I believe the son in the parable was saved when he said " Father , I have sinned against heaven "he admitted he sinned against God first...
Luke 15:21
"The son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'
...xox...
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#467
#467
Rosemaryx said:
I believe the son in the parable was saved when he said " Father , I have sinned against heaven "he admitted he sinned against God first...
Luke 15:21
"The son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'
...xox...
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Yes, but my response was to the poster who said if he had died in his condition before he came to his senses he would still go to heaven because he was a son.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#468
#468
preacher4truth said:
I've shared this with him in the past. We had a person who said he lives in drunkenness and fornication. I warned said person with 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 and he appeared to take it to heart later on. Others coddled him in his sin, and attempted to shame me over it. They cannot get past the error of "I made a one time decision, it is all good from here on out!" Instead of being theologically astute, they were inept and made a grave error concerning ones eternal soul.

If the prodigal, theologically speaking, never returned to the father in repentance, he would prove himself unconverted no matter his previous confession. Of course I am hypothesizing this parable as they are, but to the logical biblical end.
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Many who are in a back sliden condition need to fear God and fear waking up in hell with eternal regret. What could be more horrible than that. When they do, they will get up out of the pig pen and turn to God in repentance and he will rush to pick them up and clean them up. Those who think they can have their sins and heaven too will wake up in hell and remember for all eternity how many times they said they would repent later and now it is too late.

I will preach that if you have known the Lord and been born again and walked in holiness for years but then for some reason, maybe a divorce or something tragic you have gone back to the bars and the sinful life and are fornicating and getting drunk on a regular basis and you don't repent you could wake up in hell with eternal regret. I know that is theologically true. However...

That being said, I have known those who did that kind of backsliding and they have repented and returned and are on fire for Christ today. So their lives are a testimony of both belief systems. On the one they believed they would go to hell if they did not repent, and on the other hand they were restored demonstrating that God brought them back. It is hard to say if it was because God is sovereign in making sure they did not stay in that condition or if it was because they knew that you can sin yourself into a hard heart and go to hell and they responded to the conviction and warning of God to escape the fires of hell before it was too late. Can't both be true? I think they can. It is an endless loop philosophically whether they are living in holiness today because God is sovereign and once saved always saved or because they believe that if you keep sinning willfully you will go to hell and they repented out of the fear of God which is also a work of God upon our hearts. We give God the glory that we have a repentant heart and we give God the glory that we are not on the way to hell. We do not however tell other people that are getting drunk and fornicating that they are going to heaven because of their decisions in the past. We tell them to repent lest they wake up in hell with eternal regret.

22And of some have compassion, making a difference: 23And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
 
S

soggykitten

Well-known member
#469
Jul 3, 2020
2,322
1,369
113
#469
Chester said:
The title for this thread comes from the use of the phrase in James 2: it is used four times - see the bold phrases

James 2 KJV
14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Paul says in Ephesians 2:8,9 that salvation is by grace through faith, not of works. He was writing to correct the view that one is saved by doing good works.

What James writes does not contradict what Paul wrote. James says that a true faith will also have works. If the faith is alone without any works then it is a dead faith.

Good works cannot ever be done by a person's own ability or might or intellect; good works can only be done by Christ in us. We are "his workmanship" (Eph 2:10). In many of Paul's epistles, up to half of the space is given to practical exhortations to do good works in our fight for the kingdom of God. Let's fight for God's kingdom with the power of God's Spirit in us.

If your faith has no works it is no faith at all.
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Agreed. There are schools of thought in some churches apparently that teach when we hold faith that's all that is needed of us. There being a difference between faith and belief.

If works are meaningless or have naught to do with salvation why are they an issue at our judgment? “But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.” James 1:22.
“What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith, but does not have works? Can faith save him? But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” James 2:14-26.


“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.” 2 Corinthians 5:10. “For God will bring every work into judgment, including every secret thing, whether it is good or whether it is evil.” Ecclesiastes 12:14. We are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10) “He who does the will of God abides forever.” 1 John 2:17.

And lest we forget the Book of Revelation chapters 1 and 2.

https://activechristianity.org/17-bible-verses-about-good-works-god-has-prepared-for-us
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#470
#470
Scribe said:
Many who are in a back sliden condition need to fear God and fear waking up in hell with eternal regret. What could be more horrible than that. When they do, they will get up out of the pig pen and turn to God in repentance and he will rush to pick them up and clean them up. Those who think they can have their sins and heaven too will wake up in hell and remember for all eternity how many times they said they would repent later and now it is too late.

I will preach that if you have known the Lord and been born again and walked in holiness for years but then for some reason, maybe a divorce or something tragic you have gone back to the bars and the sinful life and are fornicating and getting drunk on a regular basis and you don't repent you could wake up in hell with eternal regret. I know that is theologically true. However...

That being said, I have known those who did that kind of backsliding and they have repented and returned and are on fire for Christ today. So their lives are a testimony of both belief systems. On the one they believed they would go to hell if they did not repent, and on the other hand they were restored demonstrating that God brought them back. It is hard to say if it was because God is sovereign in making sure they did not stay in that condition or if it was because they knew that you can sin yourself into a hard heart and go to hell and they responded to the conviction and warning of God to escape the fires of hell before it was too late. Can't both be true? I think they can. It is an endless loop philosophically whether they are living in holiness today because God is sovereign and once saved always saved or because they believe that if you keep sinning willfully you will go to hell and they repented out of the fear of God which is also a work of God upon our hearts. We give God the glory that we have a repentant heart and we give God the glory that we are not on the way to hell. We do not however tell other people that are getting drunk and fornicating that they are going to heaven because of their decisions in the past. We tell them to repent lest they wake up in hell with eternal regret.

22And of some have compassion, making a difference: 23And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
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There is only one "repentance" unto salvation/eternal life and it is exactly eternal life, not conditional life.
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

Senior Member
#471
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,719
113
#471
Scribe said:
Many who are in a back sliden condition need to fear God and fear waking up in hell with eternal regret. What could be more horrible than that. When they do, they will get up out of the pig pen and turn to God in repentance and he will rush to pick them up and clean them up. Those who think they can have their sins and heaven too will wake up in hell and remember for all eternity how many times they said they would repent later and now it is too late.

I will preach that if you have known the Lord and been born again and walked in holiness for years but then for some reason, maybe a divorce or something tragic you have gone back to the bars and the sinful life and are fornicating and getting drunk on a regular basis and you don't repent you could wake up in hell with eternal regret. I know that is theologically true. However...

That being said, I have known those who did that kind of backsliding and they have repented and returned and are on fire for Christ today. So their lives are a testimony of both belief systems. On the one they believed they would go to hell if they did not repent, and on the other hand they were restored demonstrating that God brought them back. It is hard to say if it was because God is sovereign in making sure they did not stay in that condition or if it was because they knew that you can sin yourself into a hard heart and go to hell and they responded to the conviction and warning of God to escape the fires of hell before it was too late. Can't both be true? I think they can. It is an endless loop philosophically whether they are living in holiness today because God is sovereign and once saved always saved or because they believe that if you keep sinning willfully you will go to hell and they repented out of the fear of God which is also a work of God upon our hearts. We give God the glory that we have a repentant heart and we give God the glory that we are not on the way to hell. We do not however tell other people that are getting drunk and fornicating that they are going to heaven because of their decisions in the past. We tell them to repent lest they wake up in hell with eternal regret.

22And of some have compassion, making a difference: 23And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
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That's not my take since I see loss of salvation unbiblical.

Jesus dogmatically declares that all that come being drawn are saved, and that these will also be raised; John 6:44. Note also John 10:27-28.

If they who fall into sin do not return to the LORD, they were never truly converted in the first place. 1 John 2:19.

The only reason they would return is because they were already his and belonged to him. True believers can fall into grievous sins for a time, but if converted will repent, being chastised of God, Hebrews 12:8ff.

I agree with this from the 1689 LBCoF:

3. And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end. ( Matthew 26:70, 72, 74; Isaiah 64:5, 9; Ephesians 4:30; Psalms 51:10, 12; Psalms 32:3, 4; 2 Samuel 12:14; Luke 22:32, 61, 62 )
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#472
#472
Scribe said:
If he died a wanton whoremonger and drunkard he would wake up in hell tormented in the flames, just like the rich man who thought he had it made because he was Abrahams son. He never stopped being Abraham's son but it did him no good because he died in his sins without repentance. He wanted Lazarus to go warn his brothers so that they would not trust in their being the seed of Abraham and REPENT so that they would not come to this place of torment. Abraham told him.. "Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things," Being Abrahams Son did not change did it? Your logic is faulty and invalid.
The Lord knows who are his and let every man that nameth the name of Christ DEPART from iniquity. I believe in the eternal security of the Christian but not of the wanton whoremonger and drunkard. Let's not blurr the lines with this "always a son" idea.

Also the parable is not a parable about being born again. If anything it was about the Pharisees being the elder brother and the prodigal being a sinner who was coming to Jesus. It was at this time a Jewish family they had in mind who were living in Israel under the customs of the Law.
Click to expand...
So you think your better than him?

my bible says me sin caused the fall of mankind, I would recommend you stop thinking your so righteous amd remember how sinful you are and how if not for Christ you would be damned where you stand
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#473
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#473
Jackson123 said:
Why you believe he stop killing? Is that because he repent and ask the Lord to come to his heart?
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As I said, if murder is really the act you are concerned about, if they ever end up believing that Jesus died for their sins, it usually takes place in a prison cell

How will he then commit murder again after that?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#474
#474
Scribe said:
Yes, but my response was to the poster who said if he had died in his condition before he came to his senses he would still go to heaven because he was a son.
Click to expand...
He would have

he had his fathers blood, he had eternal life

i was a Christian for 30years and due to a divorce some bad experience in a church and other things left god for 5 years, I guess you think if I died then I would be in hell
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#475
#475
Scribe said:
Many who are in a back sliden condition need to fear God and fear waking up in hell with eternal regret. What could be more horrible than that. When they do, they will get up out of the pig pen and turn to God in repentance and he will rush to pick them up and clean them up. Those who think they can have their sins and heaven too will wake up in hell and remember for all eternity how many times they said they would repent later and now it is too late.

I will preach that if you have known the Lord and been born again and walked in holiness for years but then for some reason, maybe a divorce or something tragic you have gone back to the bars and the sinful life and are fornicating and getting drunk on a regular basis and you don't repent you could wake up in hell with eternal regret. I know that is theologically true. However...

That being said, I have known those who did that kind of backsliding and they have repented and returned and are on fire for Christ today. So their lives are a testimony of both belief systems. On the one they believed they would go to hell if they did not repent, and on the other hand they were restored demonstrating that God brought them back. It is hard to say if it was because God is sovereign in making sure they did not stay in that condition or if it was because they knew that you can sin yourself into a hard heart and go to hell and they responded to the conviction and warning of God to escape the fires of hell before it was too late. Can't both be true? I think they can. It is an endless loop philosophically whether they are living in holiness today because God is sovereign and once saved always saved or because they believe that if you keep sinning willfully you will go to hell and they repented out of the fear of God which is also a work of God upon our hearts. We give God the glory that we have a repentant heart and we give God the glory that we are not on the way to hell. We do not however tell other people that are getting drunk and fornicating that they are going to heaven because of their decisions in the past. We tell them to repent lest they wake up in hell with eternal regret.

22And of some have compassion, making a difference: 23And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Click to expand...
Many in a legalistic condition need to fear god for thinking they are what they are not.

we are saved by faith, not by how good we are
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#477
#477
EleventhHour said:
There is only one "repentance" unto salvation/eternal life and it is exactly eternal life, not conditional life.
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Apostasy is a possibility. We have witnessed it from the first century to the present. Some explain it as "they were never saved" other who know the people involved would beg to differ and so apostasy is the explanation from scripture that is used to explain it. I do not see any contradiction in scriptures about the security of our salvation and apostasy. Others cannot reconcile the two and need to construct a mental fortress out of fear I suppose.
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#478
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#478
ForestGreenCook said:
You believe that the natural man, before he has been regenerated, has to exercise faith to accept the FREE gift of grace.

I believe the scriptures teach that the natural man, before he has been regenerated, only has the "faith" of mankind, and his accomplishments, and thinks the things of the Spirit are foolishness, and does not discern them, according to 1 Cor 2:14.

Eph 2 explains that the natural man is spiritually dead, and unable to exercise spiritual faith to accept the gift, when God quickens him. Spiritual faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, Gal 5:22, and the natural man does not have that until after he has been quickened to a new life.
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I respect your view on the scripture.

We are all arguing in part here and our knowledge is also in part

As long as all of us recognise that we all believe in some form of limited atonement, that is fine
 
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

Senior Member
#479
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,719
113
#479
eternally-gratefull said:
So you think your better than him?

my bible says me sin caused the fall of mankind, I would recommend you stop thinking your so righteous amd remember how sinful you are and how if not for Christ you would be damned where you stand
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More unChristlike ad hominem after pleading for others to end it?

No need for this petty and belittling accusation of yours, it is meant to be inflammatory. Why not try living up to the standards you've tried to shame others into recently? The above is the epitome of Matthew 23:4. "Sad."
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#480
#480
eternally-gratefull said:
He would have

he had his fathers blood, he had eternal life

i was a Christian for 30years and due to a divorce some bad experience in a church and other things left god for 5 years, I guess you think if I died then I would be in hell
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I know that I would have and that is what the Holy Spirit told me. "Repent or you will wake up in hell with eternal regret" so I repented. and I am saved and not playing around with those sins any longer. You believe what you want, I know what the parable means and the context in which it was given, it is about the Pharisees being like the elder brother when they should have been glad that their fellow jewish brothers who were living lives condemned by the law were coming to Jesus to hear about repentance and the kingdom of God, the Pharisees sure were not getting them to come to hear them. They should have been glad. They had the wrong heart. It is not about what happens when a born again christian backslides and to make it about that is a misinterpretation, bad hermeneutics and prone to all sorts of private interpretation.
 
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